Toonces - a very late reply

[mechanic]

for once i will follow the forum rules and not bump an old thread.

I saw this quote in kazaa's outstanding modern air combat bait thread.

One thing I've noticed about modern a-a combat (imo) is that the engagement is far more dependent on the first move off the merge compared to WW2 combat in Aces High. 

Like I said earlier, I've been dogfighting jets in Falcon 4 for about 10 years now.  Rarely do I get into a fight that can go the distance like an AH2 fight can.  You hit the merge, make your move (provided the engagement got to a merge) and then the fight becomes exceptionally lethal very quickly. 

One other thing that is a huge paradigm shift, something I've been reading alot on lately, is the concept of being thrust limited.  Flying a jet like the F-16/F-15, it is possible to crank in a hard turn and still be accelerating. One of the things I had to unlearn converting from a year of hard flying in AH2 back to modern jets is that there is no reason in an F-16 to go booming through the merge with excessive energy.  I want to come in there at or near my corner velocity and then power through the turn using careful throttle management. 

The differences are striking.  I can certainly understand why modern air combat wouldn't appeal to everyone though.

I don't think a sim like Falcon 4 is suited to an online game like AH2.  Korea, though, would be a very nice addition!

In bold is the part that struck me as needing a reply, or at least another opinion.

I consider this method of merging essential in AH2. This is a far more creative and effective way to duel than just seeing who can conserve the most E on the merge. The way you described merging in the F16 sim is exactly how many of us (dare I say) 'advanced duelers' see an AH2 DA merge.
 Just food for thought maybe, sir.

S!

[AKHog]

If you merge at cornering speed while your opponent is at high speed, chances are you won't be able to get a gun solution until he has extended out of range.

If the other pilot does the standard 2-3g immelman you are now at a huge E disadvantage. The other pilot can dictate the fight how they want, and to their plane's strengths, possibly never offering you another gun solution.

I have tried this many times, especially when we had the AH dueling latter. I think this approach only works well in a few situations. Like; when your opponent obviously has a lot more E than you, when both of you are already low on E, or maybe when you have a plane that can build E much quicker than your opponents.

In almost any equal E, roughly equal plane situation, IMHO this tactic will get you a quick trip to the tower 9 times out of 10. I suspect in the main arena this ratio is less simply because of the average skill level in a 1v1 duel.

Mechanic I'd be happy to go duel you sometime to see who's tactic works best  .

[Kazaa]

Jet's ROCK!

[pervert]

Jet's ROCK!

I know there a POS but I love mig-25s

[mechanic]

If you merge at cornering speed while your opponent is at high speed, chances are you won't be able to get a gun solution until he has extended out of range.

If the other pilot does the standard 2-3g immelman you are now at a huge E disadvantage. The other pilot can dictate the fight how they want, and to their plane's strengths, possibly never offering you another gun solution.

I have tried this many times, especially when we had the AH dueling latter. I think this approach only works well in a few situations. Like; when your opponent obviously has a lot more E than you, when both of you are already low on E, or maybe when you have a plane that can build E much quicker than your opponents.

In almost any equal E, roughly equal plane situation, IMHO this tactic will get you a quick trip to the tower 9 times out of 10. I suspect in the main arena this ratio is less simply because of the average skill level in a 1v1 duel.

Mechanic I'd be happy to go duel you sometime to see who's tactic works best  .

the trick is to be just slow enough to be in a chasing possition not equal immlemans, and just fast enough to not get roped. Its a fine line. I'd like to duel you for sure but dont be surprised if what you think i meant here doesnt turn out to be what i was trying to get at with this reply. Simply firewalling the throttle and trying to get as much altitude and/or energy as possible is not very creative, is it? And unless the enemy is careless enough to burn too much E, you will never rope someone on a co-alt same plane merge.
 The one who manages merge speed best will almost certainly be he who gets a shot from close in at the top not he who is trying to set up a BnZ win.

[AKHog]

I can't understand what you are trying to say. First you were talking about merging at corner speed, now only slightly slower than the enmy?

I certainly don't claim to be an "advanced dueler", but I've flown against a few in set up equal duels, and haven't ever seen someone merge purposely at a slower speed.

Forget about roping, thats not going to work on a veteran pilot in a 1v1 duel. Its all about gaining an E advantage. If you merge slow you've already given it up.

I guess you'll just have to show me what you mean some day. 

[Vudak]

I can't understand what you are trying to say. First you were talking about merging at corner speed, now only slightly slower than the enmy?

I certainly don't claim to be an "advanced dueler", but I've flown against a few in set up equal duels, and haven't ever seen someone merge purposely at a slower speed.

Forget about roping, thats not going to work on a veteran pilot in a 1v1 duel. Its all about gaining an E advantage. If you merge slow you've already given it up.

Many people make a point of getting slower than their opponent in a duel.  Having an E "advantage" doesn't always mean having more; sometimes it just means having "enough."  If you're trying to get behind the other guy, it can certainly be useful to have slightly less. 

[mechanic]

For sure, i can show you my method for dealing with an E merge both conserving my E well and winning a possitive energy advantage to win from or from chasing the other guy at slightly slower and more angles orrientated methods, best shown by leviathn in a spitfire on co E merge. You never roped levi without taking at least a few pings and probably dying.


When both players ignore trying to get a +energy advantage it comes down to what toonces describes. This type of fight only occurs between two people who like to win from disadvantage.
 
People who see a problem to be solved - the enemy must be beaten - and look for the safest and least flambouyant method of achieving that goal would never understand why two pilot would be fighting to get slowest on the merge.

It's not something one developes, I dont think, it comes from what type of person one is. The 'A to B and finish the job with the least effort and risk' type person, or someone more creative who likes to show a bit of style between A and B.


edit: right on vudak, much better stated.

[AKHog]

Many people make a point of getting slower than their opponent in a duel.  Having an E "advantage" doesn't always mean having more; sometimes it just means having "enough."  If you're trying to get behind the other guy, it can certainly be useful to have slightly less. 

We are not talking about slowing down once established in a fight to saddle up. Mechanic is talking about slowing down before the merge.

[mechanic]

vudak means before the merge also.

[AKHog]

For sure, i can show you my method for dealing with an E merge both conserving my E well and winning a possitive energy advantage to win from or from chasing the other guy at slightly slower and more angles orrientated methods, best shown by leviathn in a spitfire on co E merge. You never roped levi without taking at least a few pings and probably dying.


When both players ignore trying to get a +energy advantage it comes down to what toonces describes. This type of fight only occurs between two people who like to win from disadvantage.
 
People who see a problem to be solved - the enemy must be beaten - and look for the safest and least flambouyant method of achieving that goal would never understand why two pilot would be fighting to get slowest on the merge.

It's not something one developes, I dont think, it comes from what type of person one is. The 'A to B and finish the job with the least effort and risk' type person, or someone more creative who likes to show a bit of style between A and B.


edit: right on vudak, much better stated.

Again I just don't get what you are saying. First you said you do this becuase its much more effective in dueling, but now you say you do it because its more challenging, and say it actually puts you at a disadvantage?

When I duel, my goal is to shoot the other guy down, not put on some aerobatics display.

Don't get me wrong, I completely understand scrubbing speed to get an angles advantage in a fight. I just don't think this works on a true head on merge unless the other guy is just a total junk show.

I guess I'll never understand why you would put yourself at a disadvantage on purpose in a merge, so I leave this thread to you 'advanced duelers'. 

But next time we merge in the MA don't get mad at me when I do a 2g immelman and end up 1000 feet above you, picking parts off of your plane at will. Sorry its not "flamboyant" enough for you, but thats not why I play the game.

[Vudak]

Again I just don't get what you are saying. First you said you do this becuase its much more effective in dueling, but now you say you do it because its more challenging, and say it actually puts you at a disadvantage?

When I duel, my goal is to shoot the other guy down, not put on some aerobatics display.

Don't get me wrong, I completely understand scrubbing speed to get an angles advantage in a fight. I just don't think this works on a true head on merge unless the other guy is just a total junk show.

I guess I'll never understand why you would put yourself at a disadvantage on purpose in a merge, so I leave this thread to you 'advanced duelers'. 

But next time we merge in the MA don't get mad at me when I do a 2g immelman and end up 1000 feet above you, picking parts off of your plane at will. Sorry its not "flamboyant" enough for you, but thats not why I play the game.

I thought Batfink's last few paragraphs might be misinterpreted.  I can assure you he didn't mean offense.

The thing is, the MA is a one-time shot.  You have your one fight, and then in all likelihood don't have another 1v1 for weeks.  In the DA, you're going to have to come right back.  Your 2g immelman might win you a few fights, but only until Batfink recognizes that's what you're going to do.  Once you become predictable, you're in trouble.  Then again, it might not win you any.  You still have to come down to kill him, after all.  E states can be neutralized even if starting at a disadvantage.

Batfink and I have been friends and dueling partners for probably five years or so now.  I'd say we both have the same "natural style," but I'll admit Batfink is much more quick to adapt, and thus much better at dueling.  Take him up on some DA time, you'll find him a gentleman and a fun, challenging fight

edit - typed "can't" at first...  I need to go to bed 

[mechanic]

If that is how you like to fight I can do it also, very well. Lets find out next time we are both online. We can fight to see who would win if our lives depended on it. If murder is the intention lets have at it.
 
Then we can practice fight to test if I can beat your 2g immle within 2 turns. Maybe i can sometimes, maybe i mess up others and your less risky method will pay off.

Your sarcastic attitude does little to convey your point of view but i see the humour in it.




edit: one day i will learn to shut my mouth and let good friends talk for me, S! vudak.

[Vudak]

edit: one day i will learn to shut my mouth and let good friends talk for me, S! vudak.

lol, "with," not "for"

 

[AKHog]

Your sarcastic attitude does little to convey your point of view but i see the humour in it.

I mean no offense. It just seemed like your first few posts were bouncing around a lot. First you were saying it was an effective maneuver in a duel, and I thought I might be missing out on something; but then you were saying you use it to create more of a challenge, and it actually puts you at a disadvantage.

I certainly understand wanting a challenge in the current MA. I love flying my hog around slow and low and showing people my 6, so they dive out of orbit on me. If you can win a fight like that it's very satisfying. However, that's rarely the case in a true 1v1 duel, at least in my experience, and I thought that was what this "technique" and post was originally about (a superior technique in a 1v1 duel). But I see what you are saying now. Sometimes I like the disadvantage too. Most of the duel's I've been in with the "advanced duelers" I'm looking for every advantage I can get just to stay alive. I guess I'm just not that good yet.

Next time you see me in the MA shoot me a message and we'll go duel, not to prove anything, but just because I love dueling and I think thats where you learn can the most. Sounds like I have a few things to learn from you. <S>