Toonces - a very late reply

[mechanic]

Maybe it all boils down to me misunderstanding toonces description then. I am not very good at explaining flying obviously. No offence was taken i merely suggested a lack of sarcasm not being a bad thing if we are to understand each other better in text format.
 Our queries and statements clearly have many avenues of discusion and possible testing. All of which could be fun.
S!

[humble]

As a pretty average dueler I'll chip in a few comments.

1) E state vs Angular advantage

Maximizing E state minimizes immediate offensive potential. Even a subtle trade of E for nominal angular gain can be decisive. Very often the complaint we see of a "HO" on the re-merge is in effect the result of a max E merge that surrenders position without enough margin in E state to avoid a front Quarter shot later. While "topping out" +1000 works...+500 gets U killed more often then not...

2) An energy advantage has to be converted to an angular gain to win a fight.

A plane with angular advantage in a stabilized -E scenario is not automatically E deficient since the +E pilot still has to convert his "advantage"

3) There is no such thing as a "true HO merge" when facing a top tier dueler. Not only do you have variations in the vertical/horizontal separation as per the "rocketman" fundamentals but you have a significant number of variations of fairly flat openers at both low and hi G with sophisticated handling of relative lift vectors. It is very possible to have an adversary fly a "dumb" opener and watch him come clawing up your 6 like a SAM...

The simple reality is that neither the pure E or angles opener is safe vs a skilled adversary, Bats comment is I think directed at the fact that the E opener inherently passes the advantage to the other pilot for the presumed future gain. The angles opener attempts to create an immediate threat and at worst a stabilized position in the opponents rear hemisphere that forces him to manufacture an advantage.

In effect the "angles flyer" is making the clear statement (right or wrong) that he can and will out fly you, out think you and out shoot you. Meanwhile the "E flyer" is saying I need the early edge to win (again correctly or incorrectly). Personally I've found it doesn't matter all that much. I can give most people I can beat my 6 at 1200 and have few problems, those that own me own me either way as well. As for Bat, there are times i'm more comfortable with him 800 behind then 600 in front...since he often figures a way to convert that to 200 behind

[mechanic]

Thanks snap, i just cant say it like you do. You taught me alot about conserving energy while still playing for an angle opener just from the many times we've merged and soon augered over the years.

[Raygun]

Toonces,

I Miss your AAR's on the FF forums, hopefully you'll be making some more for FF5!

  Cheers

[TonyJoey]

If you are going for an E merge, You have to be very careful in the differences of E; too little difference gives him a nice shot, too much and he'll also get a good shot. Keeping it in the middle will usually give him very small shot oppurtunity if any. Converting the E into angles is the object of E merges as snap said above, and can be very hard to do against a very experienced stick. Usually lufberries work, where the pilot with E can begin high yoyo's to cut inside opponent, or off of merge climbing spiral, which can suck opponents into climbing where they stall and you can drop on em.

Just some things to think about on E fighting 

[B4Buster]

for once i will follow the forum rules and not bump an old thread.
I consider this method of merging essential in AH2. This is a far more creative and effective way to duel than just seeing who can conserve the most E on the merge. The way you described merging in the F16 sim is exactly how many of us (dare I say) 'advanced duelers' see an AH2 DA merge.
 Just food for thought maybe, sir.

I agree with this. Unfortunately if you have someone that likes to E merge/fight...you'll find yourself at an energy disadvantage real fast. I always wait a second to see how they're going to merge, whether it be E or angle...sometimes this 1 second can put me at an angle disadvantage very quick...but it also saves me some fights when my opponent holds his E

[toonces3]

Interesting discussion.

The reading that even got me to start thinking about the concept of being thrust limited were some old magazines from the USAF Fighter Weapons School that our school had in the library.  We had about 10 years worth, during the conversion from the F-4 Phantom to the F-15 and F-16.  What struck me was how the tactics discussions in the magazine changed and this concept of no longer being thrust limited in the F-15/16 vs. the F-4.

I've set up 1v1's flying the F-4 vs. the AI in an F-16.  Consider the merge in such a fight.  The F-4 simply must hit the merge very, very fast.  Any move the F-4 makes post-merge is going to bleed off speed, even in burner.  If the F-4 flat turns or slice turns using 16 units of AoA (max performance), he's still going to bleed 100 knots, his turn radius at 550 knots is going to be the size of Texas, and besides, the F-16 will be eating his lunch in 180 degrees anyway.
If the Phantom hits the merge with 100+ knots advantage, he can extend, go vertical, and (hopefully) shoot the F-16 in the face on the re-merge.

Now, the F-16 has a whole bag of tricks he can use.  He doesn't need to hit the merge at 550; he can hit the merge at 400-420, crank a 90 degree AoB flat turn, plug the burner in and maintain 420 right through the turn.  If he goes vertical, he plugs the burner and can accelerate going up.  No matter what, he has the power to spare such that he can fight the fight at his best speed and use throttle to maintain that speed.

I don't know what an appropriate AH2 comparison would be- perhaps a P-47D40 vs. a Bf-109K4.  The K4 can out-accelerate, at least equally turn (arguably imo), out climb, and generally out power the P-47.  If both planes hit the merge co-speed, co-E, equal pilots, I'd argue that the K4 should be able to eat the P-47 up. 

The P-47 will generally only lose energy during a fight unless/until it goes downhill.  The K-4 can actually build energy during the fight because it has so much engine that it can build up reserves during maneuvers that bleed out the jug.

Of course, I could be totally out to lunch- I've had plenty of jugs eat up my K-4. 

Mechanic makes a strong point.  Blowing through a merge with excessive speed may not confer an advantage against a well-flown enemy.  It really depends on the plane matchup.  But, in general (and this is a big general), especially in MA situations which are very dynamic and fluid, I prefer to hit the merge as fast as possible within reason because I can usually convert that speed into an altitude advantage and it is very hard to attack an enemy that is perched above you in AH2. 

In Falcon, in the F-16, this just isn't the case, you can fight uphill just fine, and it is this paradigm shift to which I was referring when comparing modern air combat to AH2 combat. 

[mechanic]

Great reply, thanks. Good examples too. So while keeping speed in the merge is definitely advantageous (by the fact that you can easily dump speed but often not gain it back). Dumping some is a dangerous game to play, a gamble, but often a gamble will pay off, not always take your money.

[toonces3]

To be perfectly honest, I've found that against some opponents there is nothing I'm going to do that is going to win the fight.  Two immediate examples that come to mind are Dedalos and Larry.  Everytime I've ever fought them, no matter what plane or advantages I had, they beat me.

That doesn't really add alot to the E vs. angles discussion I suppose, except to point out that no matter how I hit the merge, if you're on your game you're going to figure out how to beat my initial move.  The best I can do is try to stack the deck in my favor and hope for the best. 

[Raygun]

Interesting discussion.

The reading that even got me to start thinking about the concept of being thrust limited were some old magazines from the USAF Fighter Weapons School that our school had in the library.  We had about 10 years worth, during the conversion from the F-4 Phantom to the F-15 and F-16.  What struck me was how the tactics discussions in the magazine changed and this concept of no longer being thrust limited in the F-15/16 vs. the F-4.

I've set up 1v1's flying the F-4 vs. the AI in an F-16.  Consider the merge in such a fight.  The F-4 simply must hit the merge very, very fast.  Any move the F-4 makes post-merge is going to bleed off speed, even in burner.  If the F-4 flat turns or slice turns using 16 units of AoA (max performance), he's still going to bleed 100 knots, his turn radius at 550 knots is going to be the size of Texas, and besides, the F-16 will be eating his lunch in 180 degrees anyway.
If the Phantom hits the merge with 100+ knots advantage, he can extend, go vertical, and (hopefully) shoot the F-16 in the face on the re-merge.

Now, the F-16 has a whole bag of tricks he can use.  He doesn't need to hit the merge at 550; he can hit the merge at 400-420, crank a 90 degree AoB flat turn, plug the burner in and maintain 420 right through the turn.  If he goes vertical, he plugs the burner and can accelerate going up.  No matter what, he has the power to spare such that he can fight the fight at his best speed and use throttle to maintain that speed.

I don't know what an appropriate AH2 comparison would be- perhaps a P-47D40 vs. a Bf-109K4.  The K4 can out-accelerate, at least equally turn (arguably imo), out climb, and generally out power the P-47.  If both planes hit the merge co-speed, co-E, equal pilots, I'd argue that the K4 should be able to eat the P-47 up. 

The P-47 will generally only lose energy during a fight unless/until it goes downhill.  The K-4 can actually build energy during the fight because it has so much engine that it can build up reserves during maneuvers that bleed out the jug.

Of course, I could be totally out to lunch- I've had plenty of jugs eat up my K-4. 

Mechanic makes a strong point.  Blowing through a merge with excessive speed may not confer an advantage against a well-flown enemy.  It really depends on the plane matchup.  But, in general (and this is a big general), especially in MA situations which are very dynamic and fluid, I prefer to hit the merge as fast as possible within reason because I can usually convert that speed into an altitude advantage and it is very hard to attack an enemy that is perched above you in AH2. 

In Falcon, in the F-16, this just isn't the case, you can fight uphill just fine, and it is this paradigm shift to which I was referring when comparing modern air combat to AH2 combat. 

Can't wait for Derstef's Taiwan and the ITO for FF5, going to be plenty of monsterous SA-10 sites in need of some HARMs. 

[mechanic]

Ki84 is a plane that benifits from slowing down in advance and powering through the corners rather than yanking as hard as you can at 350mph and idle power settings, desperately trying to slow down.

Fair enough... one could clearly state that a 350mph Ki84 would be able to rope and maintain altitude over a 270mph ki84 in a head to head merge every time without fail. Would a mach1 F-16 not be able to 'rope' a 500mph F16 if all they had was cannon to kill with? I honestly dont know the answer to that but my geuss is the physics of thrust remain the same no matter the scale of speed or the thrust endurance of aircraft. At some point there is a limit to how far you can get from the Earth's pull, certainly with an F-16, so while it all seems so different it's really the same thing scaled up. Made also more apparent by the F-4 which falls even closer to the limits of our ki84.

[toonces3]

To be honest, I'm hoping you and AKHog will do that duel thing you were discussing.  I'm really interested in seeing how it would play out.

[AKHog]

To be honest, I'm hoping you and AKHog will do that duel thing you were discussing.  I'm really interested in seeing how it would play out.

I'm still up for it.

I think a lot of the outcome will depend on the planes we fly.

Also the outcome will depend on how mechanic choses his speed. I'm still not sure if he's suggesting merging at cornering speed, or just slightly slower than full speed.

My prediction is this: If we duel in a late war fast airplane, and he merges at corning speed, I'll be out of range before he gets guns on me. I'll then be able to dictate the fight with a huge E advantage. If he merges slightly slower than me and tries to immelman inside mine, I'll simply extend so again I'm out of his range in the climb, and again end up with a slight E advantage by the 2nd merge.

If we are fighting in slower planes, his instant angles shot might be more of a problem for me, as my plane won't have the speed to extend out of his gun range.

Either way, I would say that I would "win" the merge by gaining an E advantage, while giving up angles in the short term. The reason this works is because the angles advantage won't allow you the kill outside of a very lucky long shot, but after that I can use my E to work the angles in my advantage.

Obvious to all of us though (I think we are in agreement) is that in either case the better overall dog fighter will still probably win the fight, despite advantages gained/lost on the merge.

[mechanic]

I'm talking more about any type of merge that is not soley intended to gain an altitude advantage and sometimes that invovles merging at cornering speed other much faster, or slower.

More important is this is not about a DA merge when both players tend to dive to at least 300mph before they cross. In the furball you may find yourself merging with someone at much lower speed, if by some mirical they dont go for the head on shot of course


game id is: batfinkv, Hog, shout me anytime i love to duel or just fly head to head any way it comes.