Author Topic: The Good Ol' Days, or Rose-colored Glasses?  (Read 5735 times)

Offline Animl

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Re: The Good Ol' Days, or Rose-colored Glasses?
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2009, 07:45:06 PM »
I asked if someone would roll off this base on ch200. Was gonna totally bleed E after the merge, for a nice fair fight.  Instead he runs from a 1:1 fight to....

Tired of this ran from a good fight whine. There are many variables as to why a plane is leaving a flight, including chicken for losing perks (which I recall you aiming for last night in a 38). There is also bingo fuel or bingo ammo involved. Would you suggest that someone bingo should stay just to be an unarmed target just for you? Lotta people call chicken without knowing why the plane left,... reckless assumption IMO. 10 Yard penalty for over preached whine,... :)

Isn't that why some of the muppets the other night stopped me from following a 38 (prolly Gizz) out of the flight so he could run home land his perks?  That happened on 2 occasions with different planes in the same fight,.. a fight that Muppets promoted on 200.  I mean you guys block off people going after your guy who is bingo and heading home to land perks,...yet can't seem to understand why others leave a fight, who doesn't have an escort home to land his perks. <shrug> You seem like a good guy to me Moot, but let the Muppets get off the "run from a fight whine", it's a little hypocritical.

SkyRock is the biggest whiner of that group for people """""" running""""" . Yet I see you guys escort AC out of the fight so they can run home to land perks.

What makes the Muppets a good squad is they rarely seem to fight alone. Which is how a squad should operate...but to make up flames because someone else isn't escorted out of a fight by their wingmen is welll... you know.... kinda stupit. :)

I'm ot trying to insult, I'm just speaking like I see it. Some other people in the game can't EVER enter a thread about ANYTHING without ignoring the thread title and snivel about someone """""""runnnnnnnning"""""" for the god of all pilots.

Fir god sakes people, get a grip. !!!! <runs like hell>

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Offline moot

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Re: The Good Ol' Days, or Rose-colored Glasses?
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2009, 07:45:35 PM »
:huh :confused: :rolleyes: :huh :( :o :confused: :uhoh :eek: :huh

I would agree for opposite reasons that "this crap is rampant nowadays" :lol :rofl :lol
Maybe try to articulate something cogent instead of randoml emoticons?
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Offline moot

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Re: The Good Ol' Days, or Rose-colored Glasses?
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2009, 07:51:13 PM »
Tired of this ran from a good fight whine.
It's not a whine. It's a factual statement of exactly what the arena is too full of.  That's it, no whine no complaint or anything. I just stand there in front of the screen and watch some guys just run... for miles and miles, from nothing but a 1:1.  Or run to 5:1 odds, and then barely fight.  That's not a freakin whine, it's the plain damn freakin truth of the matter.  But then, this isn't about factual argument, it's about
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Tired of ...
Your pet peeve.


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There are many variables as to why a plane is leaving a flight, including chicken for losing perks (which I recall you aiming for last night in a 38). There is also bingo fuel or bingo ammo involved. Would you suggest that someone bingo should stay just to be an unarmed target just for you? Lotta people call chicken without knowing why the plane left,... reckless assumption IMO. 10 Yard penalty for over preached whine,... :)
Yadda yadda.  I seen plenty of those and that's not what I'm talking about.

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Isn't that why some of the muppets the other night stopped me from following a 38 (prolly Gizz) out of the flight so he could run home land his perks?  That happened on 2 occasions with different planes in the same fight,.. a fight that Muppets promoted on 200.  I mean you guys block off people going after your guy who is bingo and heading home to land perks,...yet can't seem to understand why others leave a fight, who doesn't have an escort home to land his perks. <shrug> You seem like a good guy to me Moot, but let the Muppets get off the "run from a fight whine", it's a little hypocritical.
Not what I'm talking about.

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SkyRock is the biggest whiner of that group for people """""" running""""" . Yet I see you guys escort AC out of the fight so they can run home to land perks.
Non sequitur and not what I'm talking about.

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What makes the Muppets a good squad is they rarely seem to fight alone. Which is how a squad should operate...but to make up flames because someone else isn't escorted out of a fight by their wingmen is welll... you know.... kinda stupit. :)
... Not rarely.  In fact.. At least half the time.  And again wingman enabled exits isn't what I'm talking about.

Quote
I'm ot trying to insult, I'm just speaking like I see it. Some other people in the game can't EVER enter a thread about ANYTHING without ignoring the thread title and snivel about someone """""""runnnnnnnning"""""" for the god of all pilots.
You're not seeing what I'm talking about.

Quote
Fir god sakes people, get a grip. !!!! <runs like hell>
I've got a clean grip on it, that's not the problem.. The problem is it's not what people want to hear.
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Offline 715

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Re: The Good Ol' Days, or Rose-colored Glasses?
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2009, 07:59:12 PM »
Isn't this thread a virtual duplicate of one awhile ago?  Anyway, I vote for the gameplay maybe having changed, slightly, due to large vs small maps, but that the community is about the same, going all the way back 22 years to AW on GEnie.  You think vulching is new?  In AW multiple people would man a bomber (you could have more than one gunner), fly to an enemy field, take out the ack, land, and continually vulch people spawning on the runway.  (That's why AH disables buff guns when on the ground, I think the HTC guys remember this from their time on AW.  I can't remember the slang name given for it though.)

So I vote Rose-colored Glasses ;)

Offline Rino

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Re: The Good Ol' Days, or Rose-colored Glasses?
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2009, 08:00:04 PM »
     I find it interesting that the guys who have been playing for 3-5 years don't noticr any dec;line in
gameplay.  I find Ghosth's assurtion that it's the old timer's fault for not babysitting the relative newcomers hilarious.

     Apparently setting an example by your behavior doesn't count.  Of course the attitudes possessed by the plasyers
have nothing at all to do with behavior.  Blaming another group for your flawed perception is easy and painless.  I'm sure
HTC will port the game to XBox soon, after all, it makes perfect economic sense.
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Offline simshell

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Re: The Good Ol' Days, or Rose-colored Glasses?
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2009, 08:11:14 PM »
I started back in aces high 1

and I have not noticed any huge changes,

the biggest difference I see is introduction of new aircraft and gvs that have changed the arena a little bit

but the way people have fought still seems to be the same to me

you got the pilots who relies on head on's, the turn and burners, the E fighters , the low level bombers, the spawn campers, and all those who mix it up in varying dweeb forms that people are complaining about

and then you got those out there that fly a20s and SBD's that have star wars jedi ability that proceed to massacre all the weaker pilots who lack the Force

no aces high has not changed much from what I can tell

I have changed alot but not aces high
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Offline humble

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Re: The Good Ol' Days, or Rose-colored Glasses?
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2009, 08:47:23 PM »
I'm sorry but the game has changed markedly.

The actual game itself changed in version 1.4 with a fundamental change it the flight model specific to E retention. I honestly am in no position to argue that the old FM was more correct (personal belief is yes) but the FM after 1.4 is without a doubt easy mode compared to the original. One of the things that really "got me" during beta was all of a sudden all the ACM comments, stories, shaw etc made sense. ACM was king and mistakes were costly.

As mentioned above the numbers and inclination were different, to me this was partially environment driven. Smaller numbers created more individual and small group fights. The smaller map made finding a fight easier and avoiding one (not that many people did) tougher. This created a more personal interaction. The FM was significantly more demanding (we basically have the RR version now IMO) so B&Z vs E vs angle fighting was complex and challenging. The 190/109/pony (among others) werent the uber E machines we have now. All planes bled E at a higher rate and E management was at a premium.

I think this created better fights and lower frustration, you could work a higher con and create a shot window. As a result the "golden BB" was a real and respected thing. So was the multiple fight victor. A guy who had sweated out 3 kills was highly regarded and it was easy to let him RTB. It was also easier to appreciate the guy who wore you down and popped your rode at 650+. The salutes and comments were more genuine and an appreciation of the skill and effort was both real and understood. Most of us were actively looking for the holy grail of dog fighting. Not just angles fighting, but E and B&Z as well.

The simple reality is that Aces High was a game focused on air combat...now its not...and to me that says it all.

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Offline smokey23

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Re: The Good Ol' Days, or Rose-colored Glasses?
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2009, 09:07:09 PM »
The game basically hasnt changed but the players have, it used to be smaller 5 to 10 man missions now and then. Now its nothin but 30-50 man horde missions one after the other which gets the newcomers into this "I have to be part of the horde or i cant fight" mentallity. They never learn ACM or SA and its really a sad statement for an otherwise good game.

Offline Hajo

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Re: The Good Ol' Days, or Rose-colored Glasses?
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2009, 09:30:11 PM »
MA is no longer fun for me.  In early 2000 it was.  I had many memorable fights with Citabria, Drex etc.  Good one on ones mostly with respect on bothsides.

If it weren't for my Squadmates for the last 10 years, FSO or Scenarios I frankly would not be here.  I'm playing in the MA less and less each tour.

rob53, Shamus, Vati, EDO all were here and enjoyed the game very very much.  So much so we formed a squad, one of the oldest still in Aces High.  And we are still flying

together regularly.

The difference I see is an influx of first person shooter players who have little interest in History or aircraft for that matter.  ACM and SA is foreign to them.

To bad they give points in this game.

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Offline Animl

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Re: The Good Ol' Days, or Rose-colored Glasses?
« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2009, 09:42:59 PM »
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Offline moot

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Re: The Good Ol' Days, or Rose-colored Glasses?
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2009, 09:43:28 PM »
I think so too. You missed my point.
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Offline Animl

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Re: The Good Ol' Days, or Rose-colored Glasses?
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2009, 10:15:14 PM »
Isn't this thread a virtual duplicate of one awhile ago?  Anyway, I vote for the gameplay maybe having changed, slightly, due to large vs small maps, but that the community is about the same, going all the way back 22 years to AW on GEnie.  You think vulching is new?  In AW multiple people would man a bomber (you could have more than one gunner), fly to an enemy field, take out the ack, land, and continually vulch people spawning on the runway.  (That's why AH disables buff guns when on the ground, I think the HTC guys remember this from their time on AW.  I can't remember the slang name given for it though.)

So I vote Rose-colored Glasses ;)

No one wants to listen to that, including HTC,.. I agree totally, the maps are too big and they enable more nonsense.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: The Good Ol' Days, or Rose-colored Glasses?
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2009, 11:37:55 PM »
I dont believe the map size has anything to do with players behavior but concerning 'running' I cant blame people for not wanting to be ganged. So those of you that know how should show people how to handle an airplane without resorting to the tight-gripped twirly-dance of noobishness so they can handle gang-bangers and then you wont see so many runners. If you arent doing that then you cant complain.  :eek:
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Offline Kweassa

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Re: The Good Ol' Days, or Rose-colored Glasses?
« Reply #43 on: March 09, 2009, 12:00:46 AM »
To me, Aces High was never about ACM. My interest in WW2 planes start out from the historical perspective, and therefore what is most important for me was how different pilots in different planes would act out in an virtual environment, and through such experience, "feeling" and "imagining" how WW2 might have been was always more important than the my dick is bigger than your dick-ish contest of ACM. In my point of view, everyone has different amount of talent when it comes to aerial combat, so no matter how much one "practices" stuff, in the end there is always someone you find difficult to beat, and someone you can do so easily. Not everyone can become the superb pilot we all wish to be, and as such justifies the concept of tactics - if you can't beat him alone, you beat him with a better plane, an altitude advantage, a cherry pick, and if all else fails, with numbers. To me, the "1vs1" or "duel" or "ACM-oriented" mentality was never appealing in the first place.


Therefore, how the aerial combat full of common, mediocre pilots played out was much more interesting to me. After all, these guys are like the normal, everyday pilots of WW2. They don't get the bravado and attention the more famous pilots do, nor can they make quick scrap metal out of any enemy plane they meet like them 'superaces'. They drop like flies when things go bad, they make mistakes, they're not too good, and they are just plain, average. However, these average pilots are the backbone of the airforce, and how they fight and survive in the war makes history - not just a handful experten. These people can't just become a 'good pilots', so they do anything they can within the MA to survive, and that's what was more interesting for me to watch, than the egomaniacal superpilots doing what they do all the time - fight and meet an inferior pilot, win, and then boast about it.


Thus, during the initial phase of the explosion in MA numbers I welcomed it. The "land-grab" gave the MA something larger than just what a handful ACM-lovers can enjoy. It started a coherent, full-blown 'war' into the MA where different range of situations and tactics could occur. Before that, the "war" aspect of the MA was nothing much more than a colorful facade or a background. However, with the increase in MA numbers the "war" became more apparent, and individual strifes and ACM contests - no matter how fancy or impressive - just didn't mean anything much anymore. With more numbers each of the WW2 military asepct portrayed in AH began to take form. Naval warfare and ground warfare now meant something. Tactics and strategies developed around what was previously much neglected, and treated as a few fun gimmicks for people to enjoy outside of being in an aircraft cockpit.


Then, as the numbers grew larger, the war in the MA grew more intense. People discovered the most primitive, most simple, and yet most brutal and effective tactic of all time - the Horde. People didn't fight anymore. The MA turned into a strange combination of a milkrun + overrun... where one front would be left mostly undefended and overrun by enemy horde, while the other front would be milkrun by one's own horde. It would become a chicken race - which side can steamroll and milkrun the most bases before enemies drive in through one's own undefended flank. All other tactical choices were gone, and since the MA system didn't have a centralized, coordinated strat system in place, it dug itself inside the mindset of every common player in the game.


The war in MA grows hotter and hotter, but unfortunatley, the MA is completely devoid of all of the aspects which make a war more than just ganging up into huge numbers. No attrition, no real strat/economy which effects efficiency of the military, no central chain of command which stops people from just deserting a tough fight and seeking out easy gangbang, milkrun opportunities. In short, no reason for people to come up with something else than just joining the horde movement and following it around. People do what they can do to survive. You can't blame them for it. They found the simplest, most effective way to enjoy MA.


The "Golden Years" are gone. It's not coming back. The problem with the MA is not that it has changed in mentality - but rather, the problem is that it hasn't changed structurally.

This all-out war shouldn't neccesarily be so unenjoyable for the old timers... but it is.

Fighting an all-out war shouldn't necessarily mean everyone should join an all-out massive offensive against undefended enemy lands... but it is.

Fighting an all-out war shouldn't necessarily mean that being on the defensive side is pitting yourself against the entire enemy horde... but it is.


When the focus of the MA shifted to this "war", the structure of the MA should have changed with it, to adequately accomodate for the new tendencies and situations in the MA. However, none of what was suggested ever made it into the game. The MA system remains as it was in AH1. People can do anything, fly anything, go anywhere - so, they are free to make up large hordes, avoid fights, abandon entire fronts, and milkrun airfields. Not only is there no ACM-oriented aerial combat now, but also no strategy or tactic.

The MA numbers grew large enough for a war...and so many new aircraft/vehicles have also been added into the MA to play out a war. However, the organization level and the strat system of the MA remains non-existant up to this date. We have all the toys and tools to make this a pseudo-WW2, except none of the "rules" are here. So without those "rules", it's basically nothing more than a huge team-FFA where bunching up into huge numbers and ganging up on those lesser in numbers is the only way to go.


So at this point, I find myself asking; "does the MA not need a structural change now?" It's time to rethink attrition, industry, economy, organization, limitations, and everything that's not in the MA, so everyone can find something to enjoy.

Perhaps the discontinuation of Combat Theater can become something good.

Perhaps, all of the systems that have been developed or conceptualized for the CT, can be transplanted directly into the MA.


« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 12:09:52 AM by Kweassa »

Offline Urchin

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Re: The Good Ol' Days, or Rose-colored Glasses?
« Reply #44 on: March 09, 2009, 01:56:21 AM »
I think Kweassa's post is excellent, as always.