Author Topic: Dropping Flaps??  (Read 22334 times)

Offline thorsim

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2009, 11:41:40 AM »
yea heaven forbid we discuss ...

realism in a sim ...

or

balance and fairness in a game ...



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Offline mtnman

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2009, 12:05:02 PM »
yea heaven forbid we discuss ...

realism in a sim ...

or

balance and fairness in a game ...

Might want to start here- http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/models.htm
Or here- http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/
Or here- http://www.netaces.org/


The planes are not equal to each other.  They weren't designed that way, they weren't that way in real life, and they aren't modeled to be equal in AH.

A zero does not do the same things, in the same manner , as a P51.  Neither does a 109, or a B17.

They're all different, and have different strengths and weaknesses.  The flaps drop when they did so in RL, according to the data that HTC uses, and is readily available for anyone who cares to search for it.

Can you supply any data that shows the speed of flap deployment is incorrect?
MtnMan

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Offline thorsim

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2009, 12:33:57 PM »
i didn't see any links to real world data.  could you direct me to that specific information in your links please.

as far as research goes what is the current salary for a researcher at AH?

i fail to see where i am out of line for asking for an reasonable explanation for a 2x disparity in combat flap deployment speeds.  
i mean presumably they had the real world data to make that decision, i am asking to see that data?  
am i as a player not allowed to see that information?

in as far as the game goes are you taking issue with my observations about combat in a high flap deflection mode?  

or wondering why i can deploy my landing gear at the same suspiciously slow speed that i can deploy my 190 combat flaps?

it did not seem like an outlandish request to me.

Might want to start here- http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/models.htm
Or here- http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/
Or here- http://www.netaces.org/


The planes are not equal to each other.  They weren't designed that way, they weren't that way in real life, and they aren't modeled to be equal in AH.

A zero does not do the same things, in the same manner , as a P51.  Neither does a 109, or a B17.

They're all different, and have different strengths and weaknesses.  The flaps drop when they did so in RL, according to the data that HTC uses, and is readily available for anyone who cares to search for it.

Can you supply any data that shows the speed of flap deployment is incorrect?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 12:38:17 PM by thorsim »
THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
Axis Co-Op
Quote from: any number of idiots here
blah blah Blah
Quote from: oldman
Good call.  Ignore the people who actually flew the real planes against each other.

Offline Getback

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2009, 12:53:30 PM »
In our game, to really succeed in some knock-down scissors fights you have to be prepared to drop full flaps and raise them up again in a number of seconds.  I don't know about other aircraft, but this would have been impossible in the Bf 109:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcMjhihuuX8&feature=player_embedded

Now, let's not hijack this into another "realism" thread, I was just observing... ;)

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Offline mtnman

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2009, 01:00:08 PM »
i didn't see any links to real world data.  could you direct me to that specific information in your links please.

as far as research goes what is the current salary for a researcher at AH?

i fail to see where i am out of line for asking for an reasonable explanation for a 2x disparity in combat flap deployment speeds.  
i mean presumably they had the real world data to make that decision, i am asking to see that data?  
am i as a player not allowed to see that information?

in as far as the game goes are you taking issue with my observations about combat in a high flap deflection mode?  

or wondering why i can deploy my landing gear at the same suspiciously slow speed that i can deploy my 190 combat flaps?

it did not seem like an outlandish request to me.


Are you willing to do any research on your own?  Or just want to complain about a percieved disparity without any data yourself?

Simple question, you say you're "pretty sure they're inaccurate"- how so?  What speed should they deploy at?
MtnMan

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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2009, 01:18:16 PM »
Let's get to ten pages.  On your mark, get set...
gavagai
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Offline Saxman

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2009, 01:20:43 PM »
Let's get to ten pages.  On your mark, get set...

Sounds like a job for Stiggie.
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Offline Stoney

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2009, 01:29:48 PM »
are they gonna address the disparity ?

Here's the deal with AH for all aircraft:  If the POH or some other reliable documentation says that the full flap limit speed is 150 mph IAS, then the last notch of flaps will retract at 150 mph IAS.  It doesn't matter what damage threshold actually existed in real life--doesn't matter if some ace had a story about how he had 40 degrees of flaps in his P-38 doing 400 IAS.  If the pilot operating handbook had a note that you couldn't extend flaps at all until you were under 200 mph IAS, then the first notch of flaps can't be extended until you are under 200 mph IAS.

This is how it is...It is completely consistent among aircraft.  After you've played this game for more than a few months, you'll learn that this game presents the designers with some challenges with respect to how they model the aircraft.  However, they do not purposefully nerf any one plane relative to another. 

Come back and speak to us in December and give us your opinions again...
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Offline thorsim

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2009, 01:37:51 PM »


Are you willing to do any research on your own?  Or just want to complain about a percieved disparity without any data yourself?

Simple question, you say you're "pretty sure they're inaccurate"- how so?  What speed should they deploy at?

the problem i have is that i am not a sim or game developer.  that data is not easily available and since somebody at AH has presumably already done the research what is the big issue in asking for an explanation because the physics and common sense of it all just does not wash. 

the fw190 had low degree flap settings, why if they were only to be used during landing?? besides,  everybody including the NACA testers called them combat flaps, so why then the low speed of deployment?

if it is a sim then why the 2x disparity at the high speed end of the flap deployment ability between the american and german aircraft since the bottom ends are not nearly so different.  after all the relative forces are presumably exactly the same since we are all in the same virtual sky with presumably the same air density, as is the individual power and structural strength of the systems deploying the flaps in each aircraft.  i.e. if two systems are capable of say a 150mph 60 degree deployment they why is one capable of a 400mph 10 degree deployment, and the other only capable of deploying any deflection at 180 mph or slower.  also if the latter is accurate why are they referred to as combat flaps in the first place?
it makes no sense so i am asking for the game developers reasons or reasoning in making the game this way.

if it is a game then it is just a playability issue and then the question is why the decision for a difference in flap deployment speeds at all?

once again i fail to see why it is a problem asking for this clarification.




THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
Axis Co-Op
Quote from: any number of idiots here
blah blah Blah
Quote from: oldman
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Offline thorsim

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2009, 01:41:53 PM »
great, could i see the documentation or be directed to it please.  that is all i have asked for.

thanks in advance.



Here's the deal with AH for all aircraft:  If the POH or some other reliable documentation says that the full flap limit speed is 150 mph IAS, then the last notch of flaps will retract at 150 mph IAS.  It doesn't matter what damage threshold actually existed in real life--doesn't matter if some ace had a story about how he had 40 degrees of flaps in his P-38 doing 400 IAS.  If the pilot operating handbook had a note that you couldn't extend flaps at all until you were under 200 mph IAS, then the first notch of flaps can't be extended until you are under 200 mph IAS.

This is how it is...It is completely consistent among aircraft.  After you've played this game for more than a few months, you'll learn that this game presents the designers with some challenges with respect to how they model the aircraft.  However, they do not purposefully nerf any one plane relative to another. 

Come back and speak to us in December and give us your opinions again...
THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
Axis Co-Op
Quote from: any number of idiots here
blah blah Blah
Quote from: oldman
Good call.  Ignore the people who actually flew the real planes against each other.

Offline moot

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2009, 01:43:34 PM »
Are you willing to do any research on your own?  Or just want to complain about a percieved disparity without any data yourself?

Simple question, you say you're "pretty sure they're inaccurate"- how so?  What speed should they deploy at?
He's just curious.. he just joined.. He might not know anything about how things work.

Thorsim, HTC might not want to show where they get their data.  If you have compelling data for 190s and/or 109s deploying flaps at higher speeds, you're welcome to share them here or with HTC.  :)

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Offline thorsim

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2009, 01:51:14 PM »
well i am new i guess i will wait until december and see "how things work" ...

but i am afraid you will have to excuse me for feeling a little "stonewalled" at the moment ...

thanks anyway guys ...
THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
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Quote from: any number of idiots here
blah blah Blah
Quote from: oldman
Good call.  Ignore the people who actually flew the real planes against each other.

Offline AWwrgwy

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2009, 02:02:46 PM »
i didn't see any links to real world data.  could you direct me to that specific information in your links please.

as far as research goes what is the current salary for a researcher at AH?

it did not seem like an outlandish request to me.


Along the same vein, what are you willing to pay to see that data that has been researched?  As you presume, I'm sure the time and effort didn't come for free.

I think the issue with the request is:
Quote
pretty sure they are inaccurate ...

As someone already asked. how?


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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2009, 02:07:34 PM »
Burden of proof is usually on the affirmative.  If anyone wanted to, they could reasonably doubt the authenticity of those numbers until evidence was presented to show their correctness.
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Offline thorsim

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2009, 02:16:15 PM »
just noticed it could be seen that way, but my "stonewall" comment was not a personal crack at you Stoney ...

actually a big Jackson fan.

 :salute
THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
Axis Co-Op
Quote from: any number of idiots here
blah blah Blah
Quote from: oldman
Good call.  Ignore the people who actually flew the real planes against each other.