Dropping Flaps??

[mtnman]

well i am new i guess i will wait until december and see "how things work" ...

but i am afraid you will have to excuse me for feeling a little "stonewalled" at the moment ...

thanks anyway guys ...

Sorry thorsim, I did come across pretty harsh.

HTC makes every effort to model the planes as realistically as possible.  They're not willing to "bend" the models to favor one plane over another, and that includes flap deploy speeds.  They're basing those deployment speeds on their pile of data, which they don't share.  As Stoney mentioned, the pilot operation handbooks are good places to start.  I've only got one of those myself, but they are available, and between all of the AH folks, I'm sure most of those are covered.  Occasionally, you'll see postings from those on these boards when discrepencies are discussed.  Looking at the one I have, the gear drops at the correct speed, as do the flaps, and the stall occurs at the correct speed, etc.  I don't see anything that I can point out as incorrect.  The times I've looked at other POH's on the shelf, I also don't see any glaring inaccuracies.

Short of purchasing your own books, a way to explore the data for any one plane may be to post a question such as "why do the flaps on "xxx" plane drop when they do?  What speed should they drop at?  Why aren't they modeled to do it "zzz" way?"  You'll generally get more/better/more informative responses that way.  And probably learn a bunch in the process.  Another option is to run a search of the forums.  Many of these topics have been discussed many times in the past, and the details and data are already here...

Concessions are made in some areas, where HTC feels they're needed to keep gameplay enjoyable.  Some examples would be the auto-trim, and auto-level features, as well as easy engine management, and lack of weather, wind, etc.  But they won't make one plane turn better, or fly faster, or drop flaps or gear faster than another to "even things out" between the planes.

In the end, AH is a creation by an individual, and as such some "artistic license" applies.  In the end, if they have conflicting data, they need to choose how to deal with it, and that may not be the way others would deal with it.  Accuracy between the flight models/envelopes is strived for, but there are often people who disagree with some of the specifics.

Although HTC doesn't share their own data, they do welcome users to supply/present data that shows differences between the real-world aircraft and the AH aircraft.  

[thorsim]

as to the appropriateness of my question, i am the customer and purchaser, how much extra do you believe i should have to pay for an answer to a question?  the research was presumably done to produce a satisfactory product, i am paying for the use of that product, and in that regard i feel i have every right to ask how they came up with the parameters of the game, especially in regards to things that do not seem to make sense.  

i mean if a "pilots handbook" or whatever discourages flap deployment at certain speeds,
then it surely also discourages ACM or aerobatics in a 60 degree flap deployed "dirty" airframe at 20 feet as well.

funny thing is how some things are ok and others are not ok ...

not even some questions about some things seem to be ok around here.  

it's ok, mind you i guess i came across as sarcastic too, and first.

i just think there are rules that determine how things should work.  i am not a big fan of rules and "rules" if you get my meaning.  i don't like the feeling of being inexplicably overburdened in a competitive situation, especially one that someone is asking me to pay for with one hand and refusing to share the explanation of my disadvantage with the other.  

not saying that is how it is but it is certainly how it feels right now.  

no offense to anyone.  
 

Along the same vein, what are you willing to pay to see that data that has been researched?  As you presume, I'm sure the time and effort didn't come for free.

I think the issue with the request is:
As someone already asked. how?


wrongway

[Stoney]

how much extra do you believe i should have to pay for an answer to a question?

Typically, in this community, the only thing you have to "pay" for is time.  If you are willing to do the research yourself, there are a multitude of people in this game that can point you to free resources online where you can research, for example, flap deployment speeds of certain aircraft.

That there is a discrepancy between the deployment speeds of flaps in different aircraft is a fact substantiated by aircraft documentation.  I'm a P-47 fanboi, and I know that they can hang the first notch of flaps at 400+ mph.  Probably, its because, like everything else on that aircraft, its overbuilt.  To be honest, I have no idea how it compares structurally to a FW190 flap.  I don't know what the V-speeds are in the 190 like I do in the P-47.  What I do know is that HTC hasn't purposefully nerfed the 190, so I trust the settings without researching them first.  I have researched everything I can get my hands on about the P-47 to discover why it performs the way it does.  I would encourage you to start with this community and also the internet, and do some research on what appears to be one of your favorite aircraft.  You will probably learn something about it that you didn't know before...And, ultimately, you'll discover why, in AH2 for example, the FW-190 flap deployment speeds are as they are.

[thorsim]

that would be fine stoney where do you suggest i post for the assistance in finding the flap deployment speeds for the german aircraft?

[mtnman]

as to the appropriateness of my question, i am the customer and purchaser, how much extra do you believe i should have to pay for an answer to a question?  the research was presumably done to produce a satisfactory product, i am paying for the use of that product, and in that regard i feel i have every right to ask how they came up with the parameters of the game, especially in regards to things that do not seem to make sense.  

i just think there are rules that determine how things should work.  i am not a big fan of rules and "rules" if you get my meaning.  i don't like the feeling of being inexplicably overburdened in a competitive situation, especially one that someone is asking me to pay for with one hand and refusing to share the explanation of my disadvantage with the other.  

no offense to anyone.  
 

It's a fine question, but also a fine question for the game maunfacturer to not answer.  That information could easily be considered a "trade secret" in this sense.  HTC is presenting how they've interpreted the data, and we see that in the final product.  HTC has spent time and money compiling their data, to give it away freely makes no sense to them as a business, especially as a business with competitors.  We pay for the game, not the research that went/goes into it.

I work in maunfacturing, and the company I work for sells a product (food packaging).  The customer is not privi to any/all information they ask for.  They're not given many of the specifics, and are not even allowed to see the specifics of how "their" product is created.  They're only shown/told what they/we decide they "need" to know.  Even when they tour our facility, they are limited in where they can go, what they can see, and who they can talk to.  The pay for the product, not for the information/technology that makes that product.  They're free to move on to a different supplier, but the information they're privi to won't change.  We give them the package to keep/sell their food in, we don't supply them with the chemical composition of that package, or the specific methods used to create it.

[mtnman]

that would be fine stoney where do you suggest i post for the assistance in finding the flap deployment speeds for the german aircraft?

At the top of this page is a "search" window.  First thing I'd do is try finding the info you want that way, and maybe even formulate some specific questions/concerns that way.  Maybe try "190 flaps" or "109 flaps".

As an example, the F4U and P51 flaps are constant topics, and some very in-depth information has come from those discussions.  the math and formulas are impressive, if beyond my capabilites.  At least it gives you an idea where we've been, and maybe where we could go next...  With a search of "F4U flaps", these are soem informative threads-
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,252402.0.html
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,192031.0.html

[moot]

The Ta 152 manual I've got says that full flaps are to be deployed for landing at a speed between 200-135 mph, whereas in the game full flaps are only allowed from 150 mph (and first notch at 180 mph).  Anyone know why that would be?  Seems like a good example for Thorsim.  (I'm betting Pyro and anyone else involved knows the exact construction limits - strange that the manual says otherwise though (or the manual I have is wrong))

[mtnman]

The Ta 152 manual I've got says that full flaps are to be deployed for landing at a speed between 200-135 mph, whereas in the game full flaps are only allowed from 150 mph (and first notch at 180 mph).  Anyone know why that would be?  Seems like a good example for Thorsim.  (I'm betting Pyro and anyone else involved knows the exact construction limits - strange that the manual says otherwise though (or the manual I have is wrong))

Maybe start a new thread?  The question will probably get lost here, seeing as how we're 3 pages into this topic, and yours is more specific.

thorsim, this would be a good option for you, too, if you don't find the answers you're looking for with the search feature.  Just click "New Topic" on the top or bottom right corner of the subject pane.

[moot]

I was just floating that as an example of how a figure without the full context can be misleading.. I have too much to do already to start that one right now.  Thorsim's (or anyone else) welcome to do it though.

[5PointOh]

Not to hijack about realism or things of that nature.  WWIIPerformance offers some really nice ERs of flaps used in combat by 51 drivers.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/combat-reports.html

And to me this instance is very neat, I've heard of Corsairs dropping gear, but not a 109.  Luftwaffe experts, was this a common practice?

[thorsim]

yea moot,

i have looked and the best i can find are landing flap deployment speeds, i am assuming that is full flaps 60 degrees, and then a "do not go below speed" warning for the full flaps which i assume is the dirty stall speed.  however i can not find any information on the smaller deflection angles for combat and their deployment speeds. 

i know some of the guys working on "White 1" believed that the "flaps were certainly strong enough to deploy at 500 kph" or 310.70mph however i have not found the data sheets they used to support this statement ...

i also know in browns flight tests he reported a 10 degree setting on the FW he was flying which i believe is not represented in the game.

i am thinking the numbers in the first paragraph have to do with landing approaches and not much more, and are giving speeds for the high deflection flap settings.  however that is just speculation and guesswork based on features on the plane such as the flap degree indicators etc...   

thing is i don't like words like assuming and speculation in these types of discussions.  i will dig around for more as far as the 109 goes it seems to me that the limiting factor would just be the structural limits of the flaps as the actuation was done by the pilot hard to believe that the structure was weaker than the pilot deploying it, also hard to believe that 200mph was the limit in that case ...

like i said i will be rooting around, for the 109 we probably need a pilot and or crew person, maybe skip holm could shed some light on things.  same for the 190 as i expect the actual settings were chosen by the pilot and set up individually buy the crew like some of the trim settings were.  again speculation based on the unique features, and like i said i will be looking around.

as far as gear deployment in combat i have a feeling that probably has to do with damage or the pilot hitting the controls by accident rather than any kind of evasive tactic.

of course that is speculation as well.

t

[Anaxogoras]

5point, I've seen landing gear drop in gun cam footage on number of occasions.  It's far more likely that it dropped because of damage than because the pilot intended to do it.

[FTJR]

I was dumbfounded that the combat flaps of the ki84 deployed at such a low speed. I wrote the museum in Japan that has an example on static display. They kindly sent me the POH, in Japanese. I then had to find someone to translate the relevant pages. Sure enough, HTC was right.

The point of the story is not to have a dig at anyone, just to say that HTC seems to be pretty accurate as they can be, 50 years after the event.

Regards

[PanosGR]

Gameism vs realism see how "easy" was to drop flaps in a 109

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcMjhihuuX8

[thorsim]

how do you figure that was difficult at all ...

first off the guys in the video is not at all used to it and i saw deflection with each turn ...

the whole 60 degree flaps during combat so common and apparently successful in the arenas here is far more unlikely than any other topic in this thread ...

EDIT: FTJR it just seems very very very strange that combat flaps can not be deployed until the landing gear can be in a front line fighter plane, especially ones as advanced and forward thinking as the FW-190s ...

after all the landing gear mechanism in the 190 was not as far as i know ever intended to be used as a air break as it was in the F4U or so i hear ...

so i have been looking around and have not fount the pertinent information yet.

Gameism vs realism see how "easy" was to drop flaps in a 109

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcMjhihuuX8