Author Topic: Dropping Flaps??  (Read 24131 times)

Offline thorsim

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #120 on: September 14, 2009, 03:15:31 PM »
It was not meant as a slight, just a well intended who are you?  Since you have such a remarkable knack for Luftwaffen aircraft performance knowledge.   Who were you in AW?  Spend any time in WBs?  If so, what was your callsign there?

i am thinking that you are not Chuck Yeager, as you may have guessed i am not really a Norse Demi-God ...

i still feel that this conversation is specific to this game and am not interested in diverting this conversation at this point.

no offense.
THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
Axis Co-Op
Quote from: any number of idiots here
blah blah Blah
Quote from: oldman
Good call.  Ignore the people who actually flew the real planes against each other.

Offline hitech

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #121 on: September 14, 2009, 03:22:56 PM »
Quote
The issues with LW flight models is nearly as old as these MMO flight sims...with promises of highly realistic fligh models the LW aircraft have consistently fallen short. I blame it on the lack of solid data. Why some retail games and game add-ons have better LW flight modelling is a mystery to me.

Classic statement that completely fits the profile. Including an insinuating HTC has a bias. Stating all LW flight models are not as good as all other flight models. Hmm yep I think may fit the term.

HiTech

Offline 1Boner

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #122 on: September 14, 2009, 03:24:16 PM »
i am thinking that you are not Chuck Yeager, as you may have guessed i am not really a Norse Demi-God ...

i still feel that this conversation is specific to this game and am not interested in diverting this conversation at this point.

no offense.


Thats an awful lot of writing to avoid his question.

Wouldn't it have been simpler to just answer the question?

Nobody asked you for your name, address or social security #.

Its just an in game name.

By avoiding giving a simple answer, you may be inadvertantly diverting the conversation yourself.

"Life is just as deadly as it looks"  Richard Thompson

"So umm.... just to make sure I have this right.  What you are asking is for the bombers carrying bombs, to stop dropping bombs on the bombs, so the bombers can carry bombs to bomb things with?"  AKP

Offline hitech

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #123 on: September 14, 2009, 03:32:36 PM »
Thor:

Pyro and I have been creating sims for 15 years.

Knowing your background is very much pertinent, for all we know you may have stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Who would you say has the burden of proof when making claims. With your very first post you state AH is incorrect, and on you 2nd post your reasoning is  "It is obvious".

Can we be incorrect at times, absolutely, but I do believe 15 years of experience does deserve a little more credence and respect than you have give from your very first post.

HiTech




« Last Edit: September 14, 2009, 03:34:20 PM by hitech »

Offline thorsim

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #124 on: September 14, 2009, 03:33:18 PM »
Thats an awful lot of writing to avoid his question.

Wouldn't it have been simpler to just answer the question?

Nobody asked you for your name, address or social security #.

Its just an in game name.

By avoiding giving a simple answer, you may be inadvertantly diverting the conversation yourself.



i ... am not interested in diverting this conversation at this point.

no offense.

THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
Axis Co-Op
Quote from: any number of idiots here
blah blah Blah
Quote from: oldman
Good call.  Ignore the people who actually flew the real planes against each other.

Offline moot

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #125 on: September 14, 2009, 03:34:28 PM »
I do have one question...why does the 190 which has electro mechanical flap mechanisms similar to late war Allied aircraft, have the same flap deployment speeds as the 109? I've only seen a translated 190 pilot manual that had a caution on the flaps, nothing else. On the other hand I have seen U.S. P-51 AAR's that specifically state the pilot deployed his flaps during aerial combat...wouldn't it be safe to assume a 190 pilot had the same capability considering the similarities in the mechanisms?
Quote from: Pyro
It was my intent to increase the number of flap notches in the 109 to the maximum of 5 that the system supports since it had a completely variable system. 

On the issue of speeds, I had assumed I was mistaken since so many people were stating that to be the case.  However, I checked the German 109E manual, the Finnish G-2 manual, and the German 109K manual just to be sure and they all stated the same thing.  Don't operate them at speeds greater than 250 km/hr, don't have them full down at speeds greater than 250 km/hr.  Now in this version, I've stretched this out to the limit of credibility IMO unless I want to throw out the standards we've used for everything else and just crank up the numbers on everything.  But I've already explained that we're not going to do that.

Quote
Saw a couple of long discussions with some information in them...but just searching p-51 there were only 9 full pages.

Discussions on the 109 and 190 totalled about 40 pages...since the year 2000.
That gauging by # of threads/posts only "proves" that people are willing to discuss them at length, not whether one or the other is discussed more seriously or thoroughly.  You guys who are new here should know that the HTC easily accomodate reasonable requests.  Not requests without data or with incomplete or biased data.  Definitely not requests that force their hand.  So please keep this in mind.. Doing otherwise is just not cool for the rest of us who might happen to want the planes in question looked at; luftwaffe or not.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2009, 03:49:59 PM by moot »
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Offline 1Boner

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #126 on: September 14, 2009, 03:39:31 PM »
are they gonna address the disparity ?

Who diverted the conversation from the OPs original question??
"Life is just as deadly as it looks"  Richard Thompson

"So umm.... just to make sure I have this right.  What you are asking is for the bombers carrying bombs, to stop dropping bombs on the bombs, so the bombers can carry bombs to bomb things with?"  AKP

Offline gyrene81

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #127 on: September 14, 2009, 03:47:03 PM »
Classic statement that completely fits the profile. Including an insinuating HTC has a bias. Stating all LW flight models are not as good as all other flight models. Hmm yep I think may fit the term.

HiTech

Awww come on HiTech. Don't go getting all defensive on me now. I didn't "insinuate" anything much less a bias from anyone at HTC, and I have specifically stated in my previous posts that I blame a lack of documentation. I'm assuming you guys aren't going to program something into the flight characteristics of any aircraft models without having some sort of documented proof...and it shows. My point was that the same lack of documentation has affected the LW aircraft in different flight sims across the board in one form or another.


Aside from the one little tiny quirk about the flap deployment speeds in the 190s I'm not complaining about the LW airframes in AH. I think they are as close as possible without evidence that they worked any differently...and until someone comes up with evidence that isn't anecdotal or "one off"...I wouldn't ask that anything be changed.
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Offline mtnman

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #128 on: September 14, 2009, 03:49:50 PM »
Saw a couple of long discussions with some information in them...but just searching p-51 there were only 9 full pages.


I'm referring to pages of discussion, not pages of topic titles.
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Offline hitech

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #129 on: September 14, 2009, 03:50:16 PM »
gyrene81:

Quote
The issues with LW flight models is nearly as old as these MMO flight sims...with promises of highly realistic fligh models the LW aircraft have consistently fallen short

Unless I am missing something are you not stating HTC has fallen short with planes from the LW? And not from other countries?

You also make the assumption that we have less data on LW than American planes.

HiTech
« Last Edit: September 14, 2009, 03:51:52 PM by hitech »

Offline gyrene81

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #130 on: September 14, 2009, 04:06:11 PM »
gyrene81:

Unless I am missing something are you not stating HTC has fallen short with planes from the LW? And not from other countries?

HiTech
Yes sir, I am only addressing the LW ac at this point because it was a point of contention nothing more and surely not due to any thought of bias on your part. I think you're looking for me to take a sideswipe at you and your credibility...and I assure you I am most definitely not. I am very up front about my thoughts and if I was going to take a pot shot at you I would do so in very plain unmistakeable terms.


And yes...I believe there is less operational data on LW, Japanese and Russian aircraft than there is on U.S. or British aircraft which have been highly documented through the years.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2009, 04:07:55 PM by gyrene81 »
jarhed  
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Offline thorsim

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #131 on: September 14, 2009, 04:12:33 PM »
i have been playing your games for 12+ years hitech ...

my question is about the relative reaction to forces of airflow on two similar structures and why they are modeled so differently in some of your games.  it is a physics disparity and should have relatively very little to do with anything else.  

i am sure you understand that when the same forces are treated differently on different FMs these things stand out as obviously incorrect.  i have not after all brought up planes that did not have low deflection flap settings in my observation.  

i have shown you the specific data sheet that both addresses the specific issue on one of the FMs in which i noticed the problem, and clearly shows the physics that are at the core of this imo incorrect representation in the game.

air resistance forces should be consistent across all the FMs, that is obvious.
the same structure should be able to handle the same force(at least), that is obvious  
so when air flow resistance is decreased, speeds able to be sustained by the structure should increase, that is obvious.
this should happen across the plane set in proportion to every other similar structure modeled in the game, that is obvious.

what IMO you have lost in your more recent efforts that i have played as you have improved your offerings is the wonderful well defined envelopes of the aircraft modeled in AW, and the completely objective way the physics of flight treated the entire plane set.  

as gyrene has stated we think that it is due to the availability of data on some aircraft, and so in this case you have taken an apparent training manual operational restriction and represented it as a design limit, which it is clearly not, as my data has shown, and quite frankly imo a little time thinking about the issue should have made clear.  

that would be ok except that is not how you determine all the limits on all the aircraft.

because of that what you are left with is very poorly defined envelopes and planes that stand out as obviously wrong vs. other planes in the set which apparently operate under a different set of physical laws.

i am not intending to project intentional bias on your or your teams part, what i am trying to point out is that when the criteria for limits are different across the plane set then you make yourself vulnerable to an apparent bias in the resulted FMs.

please take this to heart and review the processes you used to determine the limits on the FMs because they do not seem correct, and in this particular case they seem to me to be obviously very incorrect and that disparity has a very real effect on the game play and therefore is undermining the immersion factor i am sure you are trying to achieve in the game.

thank you for your consideration in this matter.  

sincerely most respectfully

t

aka. richard boswell
(thoraw, thorwb, -thor-, thorsim --- 159BK, <?>, =<LR>=, JG-51, JG-27, JG-Amerika-EMC, II-JG-27 AH) 

a fan of your games ...

++S++



Thor:

Pyro and I have been creating sims for 15 years.

Who would you say has the burden of proof when making claims. With your very first post you state AH is incorrect, and on you 2nd post your reasoning is  "It is obvious".

Can we be incorrect at times, absolutely, but I do believe 15 years of experience does deserve a little more credence and respect than you have give from your very first post.

HiTech





« Last Edit: September 14, 2009, 04:32:30 PM by thorsim »
THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
Axis Co-Op
Quote from: any number of idiots here
blah blah Blah
Quote from: oldman
Good call.  Ignore the people who actually flew the real planes against each other.

Offline moot

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #132 on: September 14, 2009, 04:25:48 PM »
you have taken an apparent training manual operational restriction and represented it as a design limit, which it is clearly not, as my data has shown, and quite frankly imo a little time thinking about the issue should have made clear. 

that would be ok except that is not how you determine all the limits on all the aircraft.

because of that what you are left with is very poorly defined envelopes and planes that stand out as obviously wrong vs. other planes in the set which apparently operate under a different set of physical laws.
It's so that the planes in the game are representative of the most common configuration used historically.  For this same reason, the 21cm rocket tubes aren't jettisonable.  That's the rationale imposed on top of accurate physical modeling (which we have).
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Offline Yeager

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #133 on: September 14, 2009, 04:28:35 PM »
Its a damned good thing you two have miracled yourselves into the world of AH to straighten things out.  Good luck using that tone  :D

<S>
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #134 on: September 14, 2009, 04:39:13 PM »
Its a damned good thing you two have miracled yourselves into the world of AH to straighten things out.  Good luck using that tone  :D

<S>
What are you smiling about Yeager? It's your fault I'm even involved in this thread... :rofl

No miracle involved...I was tired of the crappy flight models and terrains in WBs (and I got banned for saying so in their forums  :lol) so I jumped to AH.
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