Dropping Flaps??

[Anaxogoras]

In case any of you missed it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcMjhihuuX8&feature=player_embedded

Imagine trying to deploy those during combat...not gonna happen.

[hitech]

  I think the ability to sustain speed in turns, similar amoung many types, should determine the useability of flaps at higher speeds,

Why? We are talking modeling limits, nothing to do with L&D curves of flaps.

HiTech

[Bronk]

In case any of you missed it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcMjhihuuX8&feature=player_embedded

Imagine trying to deploy those during combat...not gonna happen.

Wow! I could only imagine under G-load.

[thorsim]

hitech,

i meant for that approach to be used across the set where the pilots handbook and the technical trials display a wide disparity in their numbers.

i just used the types we have been discussing as examples since they are the FMs i have noticed this issue in so far.

i understand your problems with regard to all the planes and i was wondering this ...

we have the chart with the "air speed/degree of deflection" curves for the 109.  we have your numbers for the planes that can deploy their flaps at higher speeds in AH and the data you have to support those speeds.

if we take the numbers we have for the known high speed combat flap planes plot them and draw the curves and plot any other seemingly relevant data we could find and draw those as well ...

do you think that if we show a correlation throughout all those curves, proving that it is a consistent
"wind resistance/structure strength" issue, and therefore we could reasonably predict the speed/resistance relationship to any degree of flap deflection for a given system as long as we know the degrees to be estimated and an approved speed at one of those degrees of deflection settings?

at least any system that allows multiple flap deflections.  even if we only had a single deflection angle and its approved speed?

do you think that proving the relationship is a consistent "wind resistance=force applied to structure" matter over all the flaps that offer variable deflection angles, and therefore predicable for any degree of deflection that may be modeled in the game. 

in your opinion would that be a valid way of approaching  this issue?

It is a valid premises and is what I was saying in option #3.

I have no idea if this is or is not reasonable.
Is this only an example?
I really have no idea with out the other papers surrounding your 1 data sheet how the data was created? 
What are we suppose to do with the other 100 aircraft we have?
How do we choose speeds for aircraft with other sheets?
Where does the 109E fall in strength of flap design as compared to other aircraft.
Do we now need to move all the other aircraft also?

These are just a few of the questions that are raised by wanting to change our current way of choosing speeds. Note, I again did not say it can not be changed, I am really just wanting to show you that you can not look at one plane in isolation.

As I said earlier. You wish to discuss this, start thinking about the entire system and how it will effect all planes when you ask questions like is it reasonable.

HiTech

[thorsim]

it is just as likely as adjusting a trim wheel in the same g-loaded condition ...

i don't see it as impossible ...

besides every turn you wish to close up is not necessarily high G.

not to mention that every turn on the wheel offers a deflection and corresponding effect on the lift of the wing, so we are not talking about a full swing from 60 degrees and back for the flaps to show an effect ...

In case any of you missed it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcMjhihuuX8&feature=player_embedded

Imagine trying to deploy those during combat...not gonna happen.

[Wmaker]

not to mention that every turn on the wheel offers a deflection and corresponding effect on the lift of the wing, so we are not talking about a full swing from 60 degrees and back for the flaps to show an effect ...

It is of course true that smaller increments would help but I think the point gavagai was making was that it currently takes only 8 secs in AH to get them fully down. While you can see in the video that the guy could have cranked faster, it still took over 20 secs...

[Yeager]

It is of course true that smaller increments would help but I think the point gavagai was making was that it currently takes only 8 secs in AH to get them fully down. While you can see in the video that the guy could have cranked faster, it still took over 20 secs...

Perhaps slowing the process of flaps deployment in 109s is called for.  In the name of "realism" 

[Scherf]

Oh FFS, quit trolling. You've had your answer, move on.

[gyrene81]

Oh FFS, quit trolling. You've had your answer, move on.

And what was the answer...nevermind...you're just trolling.



Thor is looking at the maximum speed 10 degree "combat flap" deployment issue, not a full flap deployment. Although the entire range of flap deployment speeds would be affected. Strangely enough if there is any record of a Luftwaffe pilot getting trained or just using the flaps in aerial combat rather than at landing/takeoff speeds, it's not readily available. There are a number of references from 109 pilots who mention using the "flettner" (named after the person who invented the trim tab) or trim setting at higher speeds.



Since I'm not as well versed on every aspect of flaps just a question: wouldn't the type and size of the flaps have a lot of influence on the aerodynamics when deployed? For instance the P-51D uses a "fowler flap" where the 109 uses a "slot" flap and I believe the Ki 84(?) had "split" flaps.

Those flap designs along with the length and width affected the flight characteristics differently, so applying the same values across the board wouldn't be very accurate either in my opinion.

[Wmaker]

Since I'm not as well versed on every aspect of flaps just a question: wouldn't the type and size of the flaps have a lot of influence on the aerodynamics when deployed? For instance the P-51D uses a "fowler flap" where the 109 uses a "slot" flap and I believe the Ki 84(?) had "split" flaps.

109 and P-51 have plain flaps. KI-84's flaps are of the fowler type. 190 for example has split flaps. EDIT/Well, actually it is true that both 109 and P-51s flaps can be called to be more of the slotted flap type./EDIT

[thorsim]

And what was the answer...nevermind...you're just trolling.



Thor is looking at the maximum speed 10 degree "combat flap" deployment issue, not a full flap deployment. Although the entire range of flap deployment speeds would be affected. Strangely enough if there is any record of a Luftwaffe pilot getting trained or just using the flaps in aerial combat rather than at landing/takeoff speeds, it's not readily available. There are a number of references from 109 pilots who mention using the "flettner" (named after the person who invented the trim tab) or trim setting at higher speeds.



Since I'm not as well versed on every aspect of flaps just a question: wouldn't the type and size of the flaps have a lot of influence on the aerodynamics when deployed? For instance the P-51D uses a "fowler flap" where the 109 uses a "slot" flap and I believe the Ki 84(?) had "split" flaps.

Those flap designs along with the length and width affected the flight characteristics differently, so applying the same values across the board wouldn't be very accurate either in my opinion.

well that is what i am proposing to find out gyrene ...

there is a constant to work with that should hold true at least in general which is the wind resistance at a given speed

i.e. we are not considering the way the wind effects each structure relative to the other structures.

what i am proposing is to see if the wind resistance changes in a consistent manner against each structure relative to itself over the differences in the deflection applied.  which i believe should be true.

if that holds true then all we should need is one value of deflection/speed for any given flap structure and we should be able to predict the rest of the deflection/speed values.

[gyrene81]

109 and P-51 have plain flaps. KI-84's flaps are of the fowler type. 190 for example has split flaps. EDIT/Well, actually it is true that both 109 and P-51s flaps can be called to be more of the slotted flap type./EDIT

Yeah not much surface visible difference between the plain and slotted flaps is there? Not until you jump into "double slotted"...  And the fact that the 109 flaps allowed the ailerons to droop up to 11 degrees in a resting position makes it even tougher to figure out.

Thank you for correcting me on the Ki84 flaps...wasn't there a Jap or Russian fighter that used slotted flaps? LaGG5 maybe?

[moot]

109 ailerons drooped with the flaps?  Slotted (I could be wrong) look like they have the same kind of benefit from air flowing thru the slot as leading edge slats do for the wing.

[Wmaker]

wasn't there a Jap or Russian fighter that used slotted flaps? LaGG5 maybe?

Lavotchkin series uses split flaps like the Yaks. The Japanese fighters pretty much used either the fowler (Maneuvering fowler flaps on JAAF aircraft are also called "butterfly-flaps") or Split-flap type.

[Wmaker]

Only the E-models used the drooping ailerons. With the F the whole wing was redesigned.