Author Topic: Dropping Flaps??  (Read 22397 times)

Offline thorsim

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #195 on: September 16, 2009, 01:55:41 PM »
Thor force on the structure will change with AOA, I just have never looked into exactly how much.

HiTech

i understand hitech, that does seem to make sense, what does not make sense is that that force would be very different for similar structures on different aircraft.  
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Offline hitech

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #196 on: September 16, 2009, 02:56:51 PM »
Thor: I am not claiming it does change between planes, what I am speaking about is the Flap limit chart you show does not give a context. I.E. was the chart a test done intended for landing and hence low g loads?

Was it simply a 1 g calculated max speed chart?

And if the chart was simply a max speed test with out considering G loads, this could be the discrepancy between it and the manuals.


HiTech


Offline gyrene81

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #197 on: September 16, 2009, 03:13:26 PM »
But the force load on a flap structure is different between planes depending on wing dimensions among other things, (or I'm really confused about the mechanics and need to drink more alcohol) but it seems pretty straight forward.

Considering this formula:
    * L is the lift,
    * ρ is the air density,
    * V is the true airspeed of the airplane
    * S is the planform area of the wing and
    * CL is the aircraft lift coefficient

Planform and Chord are 2 determining factors on the load of a flap structure. If you were talking about an absolute exact same structure on absolute exact same wings...there would be no difference.

I wish I could find the same data on the 109 wings but here is data on the P47 wings take note of the "total projected wing area" that the "landing flaps" occupy:


Main members of the wing are the two main spars which support attachment of the wing to the fuselage and three auxiliary spars, one each supporting the aileron and flap and the other supporting the landing gear.



Ailerons on the P-47, representing about 11.4% of the total projected wing area, are Firse type, aerodynamically and dynamically balanced.
Forged aluminum alloy hinges of the aileron are attached to the outboard auxiliary wing spar.


Landing Flaps

Landing flaps of the P-47, representing 13% of the total projected wing area, are NACA slotted trailing edge type. They are hydraulically operated, receiving pressure and fluid from the hydraulic system and during extension move first aft and then down and during retraction move first up and then forward; this movement, actuated by three trapezoidal linkage hinges, insures perfect positioning of the flap against the main panel, thereby maintaining the proper airfoil section. The linkage hinges are synchronized by attachment to a torque tube and the assembly is attached to the inboard auxiliary wing spar. Independent units are synchronized by hydraulic pressure. Flaps are pinned to the flap linkage assembly hinges with standard bolts.

« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 03:15:11 PM by gyrene81 »
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Offline thorsim

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #198 on: September 16, 2009, 03:41:56 PM »
hitech it could be but that is at least as much speculation as any other reasoning in this thread.  it is just as likely that the persons in charge of those manuals wanted to discourage pilots from relying on combat flaps to solve angle problems they felt were better addressed in other ways.  as you have stated there is no way of knowing the reasons for the disparity in our information with just the information we currently have available.  

we may however possibly project all the deflection/speed values on one aircraft from a single deflection/speed value using the corresponding force as a guide.

gyrene forget multiple types of flaps, forget different planes, what i am saying is ...

if we know the flaps on a plane can hold up under 200lbs per sq inch of force at 60 degrees deflection, it may be reasonable to assume that those same flaps on that same plane can hold up under 200lbs per sq inch of force at 10 degrees deflection and therefore we may be able to assume that they hold up to the increase in speed required to achieve 200lbs per sq inch of force at 10 degrees whatever that may be.

understand?      

Thor: I am not claiming it does change between planes, what I am speaking about is the Flap limit chart you show does not give a context. I.E. was the chart a test done intended for landing and hence low g loads?

Was it simply a 1 g calculated max speed chart?

And if the chart was simply a max speed test with out considering G loads, this could be the discrepancy between it and the manuals.


HiTech


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Offline Gaston

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #199 on: September 16, 2009, 03:58:32 PM »
  Regardless of what deployment angle the load on flaps could theoretically allow, the real question for a simulation is; was this in-combat deployment actually worthwhile and used in real life? If the answer is no, then it makes sense for a simulation to treat flap deployment as a landing feature only, which could be what the manuals intended to do, discouraging, as Hitech says, an unprofitable use of those flaps.

  In the 109 flap deployment video, it clearly shows a few simple turns of the wheel easily reached 10° or more in two-three seconds, with little effort, which is makes it not that unthinkable they could have been used in real life during high speed combat.

  Yet we have Stigler on record saying flaps on the 109 were never used in combat. Maybe he meant they were never GAINFULLY used that way, given the non-MW-50 109G/K's poor speed retention in turns, but in any case that statement carries greater weight for me than what could theoretically be done with those flaps, especially since MW-50 use was not so common "in the field".

  In a simulation, what I would then do is avoid offering a MW-50 equipped 109 model, since much less is known about it... It could be that those DID find it competitive to use flaps, accounting for their apparently greater turn performance... We may never know, but I'll add MW-50 did blow-up engines in dives, or burn them in climbs, with alarming regularity...

  A trick we DO know was WIDELY used by the 109G was trimming the aircraft very tail-heavy, so that a constant push was required on the stick just to fly level. This allowed a much faster nose-up response when suddenly pulling the stick at higher speeds, elliminating the 109G/K's high speed mushing-delayed elevator response (Osprey BF-109F/G/K aces of the Western Front).

  When was the last time you heard THAT trick being used on the 109G in a simulation game? Yet it was widely taught in Luftwaffe training, and was widely used, as apparently evidenced by the common observation by Allied pilots that a lot of the inexperienced 109G pilots tended to "Gear" up and down as they they tried to fly straight...

  Quote, Hitech: "3. Make some assumptions and guesses that different methodologies were used when writting manuals, and then try to model all flaps as if the manuals were all written with the same mythology."

  I think WWII comparative flight modeling IS guessing, regardless of what anyone claims about it. There are just too many dark holes for it to be tought of as "scientific", or to follow rigidly a methodology accross unrelated evaluations and manuals that may have had different criterias or purposes.

  The best example of what not to do is applying math uniformly to the FW-190A's low-speed turn rate, ignore what virtually everybody in the Luftwaffe and elsewhere has said about it, and then say the non-MW-50 Me-109G or K out-turns it at low speeds by a significant margin, or that it (the FW-190A) is a great high speed (or even vertical!) fighter... By trying to be too "scientific", you get the exact opposite of reality...

  Gaston

  


  

    

Offline gyrene81

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #200 on: September 16, 2009, 04:13:10 PM »
if we know the flaps on a plane can hold up under 200lbs per sq inch of force at 60 degrees deflection, it may be reasonable to assume that those same flaps on that same plane can hold up under 200lbs per sq inch of force at 10 degrees deflection and therefore we may be able to assume that they hold up to the increase in speed required to achieve 200lbs per sq inch of force at 10 degrees whatever that may be.

understand?      

Ok I get what your aiming at now. And thank you for dummying it down for me.

There's something I remember from mechanical engineering class that makes me think your logic could be a bit off. In the case of airplane flaps there are way too many variables that you're leaving out that affect the load limit on a flap but just focusing on the stress limits.

With no variables at all and a using a static structure, a 60 degree angle can handle more vertical and lateral force than a 10 degree angle assuming there is constant equalized pressure...but you're not dealing with a static structure or constant equalized pressure.

If the critical stress limit (break of point) on a specific flap assembly at 60 degrees is 400mph at 300 feet altitude...that won't hold true for the same angle at 30,000 feet due to the thinner air (without doing the math, I would guess close to 450mph). A 10 degree flap angle at 300 feet can handle higher speeds without breaking due to the lower angle of resistance...assuming you're talking about flat horizontal movement and no other opposing forces being dumped into the mix.




Gaston, look real close at that video...there is no atmospheric resistance on those wings or the flaps while that guy is turning that wheel...looks like there is no slack in the mechanism either so each turn directly affects the angle of the flap. Pulling them up in flight would obviously be easier. Few if any pilots maneuvered their planes in combat with just one hand...throttle and stick have to be manipulated, and in some cases both hands on the stick to maintain control, so there is very little time to turn that wheel. So now we're still left with the conjecture part, possible vs probable.

I found a publication that has some "testimony" from Finnish and German pilots describing their use of the trim wheel in combat...not the flaps. I'll post them when I get home...leaving the office now.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 04:15:34 PM by gyrene81 »
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Offline hitech

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #201 on: September 16, 2009, 04:20:27 PM »
Quote
if we know the flaps on a plane can hold up under 200lbs per sq inch of force at 60 degrees deflection, it may be reasonable to assume that those same flaps on that same plane can hold up under 200lbs per sq inch of force at 10 degrees deflection and therefore we may be able to assume that they hold up to the increase in speed required to achieve 200lbs per sq inch of force at 10 degrees whatever that may be.

understand?     

I understand your statement, and it is not necessarily true depending on how the flap linkages are made. But assuming your assumption is correct, what are you trying to state by it?

HiTech

Offline thorsim

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #202 on: September 16, 2009, 04:28:57 PM »
i am not trying to state anything now what i am proposing is that we look into it as a "theory" plotting and charting the flap values we know and seeing if there enough of a predictable pattern to feel comfortable using that process as part of the way these decisions are made in the future. 

it is just a suggestion for using known values and physics to help fill in some gaps in our data.

I understand your statement, and it is not necessarily true depending on how the flap linkages are made. But assuming your assumption is correct, what are you trying to state by it?

HiTech
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Offline hitech

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #203 on: September 16, 2009, 04:33:11 PM »
gaston wrote:
Quote
When was the last time you heard THAT trick being used on the 109G in a simulation game?


It is used many times in 109s in AH.

HiTech

Offline hitech

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #204 on: September 16, 2009, 04:36:35 PM »
i am not trying to state anything now what i am proposing is that we look into it as a "theory" plotting and charting the flap values we know and seeing if there enough of a predictable pattern to feel comfortable using that process as part of the way these decisions are made in the future. 

it is just a suggestion for using known values and physics to help fill in some gaps in our data.


Thor, you are just wanting to do what we normally call a smell test. I.E. does the data stay with in the realm of reason. And we already do that.

HiTech

Offline thorsim

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #205 on: September 16, 2009, 04:44:10 PM »
ok well i am just suggesting we use that smell test on the relative flap deployment speeds,
which i will do as part of my looking around and submit my results with whatever else i find.

i just wanted to see if that was an approach you might find valuable.

thanks, and sorry it took a while to get my idea across ...

t

Thor, you are just wanting to do what we normally call a smell test. I.E. does the data stay with in the realm of reason. And we already do that.

HiTech
THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
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Offline PanosGR

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #206 on: September 17, 2009, 09:19:17 AM »
i think and after 14 pages of endless discussion the question is: to drop or not to drop? the flaps i mean  :noid

Offline gyrene81

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #207 on: September 17, 2009, 10:57:52 AM »
i think and after 14 pages of endless discussion the question is: to drop or not to drop? the flaps i mean  :noid
They drop now...the question is how fast can you fly before not being able to.



and it's only 9 pages atm.
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Offline Bronk

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #208 on: September 17, 2009, 03:30:18 PM »
They drop now...the question is how fast can you fly before not being able to.



and it's only 9 pages atm.


Bzzzzt 3 pages. ;)
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Offline moot

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #209 on: September 19, 2009, 08:37:10 PM »
i think and after 14 pages of endless discussion the question is: to drop or not to drop? the flaps i mean  :noid
It's not endless.  It's a pretty good discussion from my POV; it's not stagnating because HT and Thorsim are actually cutting down argumentative obstacles on the way to the real bottom line.
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