A hypothetical question for the crowd regarding kills landed messages...

[iTunes]

how about one step further and remove the scoring system all together

[texasmom]

I don't see many of those remarks as realistic.

Isn't the whole competitive, one-up-man-ship hard-wired into the male brain?  Wait, don't answer that.  I already know that it is.  What fun is beating the next guy if he doesn't know he's been beat?

Granted, all of that beating doesn't need to be displayed in a nasty manner... what better way than getting your name in lights?

Listen, if someone is chit-talking me on 200 (which hardly ever happens), I LOVE to land kills right after that, even if it's just the measly little two kills (thumbs my chin at the same time... "take that!"). 

What's the big deal with nobody liking the whole name in lights thing anyhow.

Whatever.  Competition rocks.  Bring on the kills & lets see 'em.

[moot]

But that's the thing.. If some guys will bypass the competition, the kill messages are hollow.  If removing the kill messages curtails the need to dodge competition (no reward for it), it could leave those guys with no choice but to get really their hands dirty instead.  win-win.

[texasmom]

Yeah, I guess that's true too.

[Wingnutt]

I had a guy call me out in PMs yesterday because I "ran from a fight"  which is 100% true..  I did run, and he didnt follow.. and nobody fought

2 things caused this:

1: I did not want to fight him ON TOP of his base so that when I finally get the upper hand he can just drag me through ack..

2: He did not want to fight away from his base where he couldn't hide in the ack if he lost the upper hand..


I was in a P40E he was in a 109G2.. he could have caught me, no problem  but that's not the fight he wanted to fight..

this all points to an undeniable, incontestable truth..  people are creeped out by P40s.

but in terms relevant to this thread, having a name in lights had nothing to do with his nor my decision..    I think "landing kills pat on the back" is often a scapegoat.  Its something that is right out there and easy to point at and say "THAT is why he/they fly like that!"  I think individual mentality and perception of WHAT is a fair fight and what each individual is willing to go for is what its about..  there are people who will avoid anything more than a 1V1, and there are people who like nothing more than a sky filled with red icons..  and a million variations in between. I think when it comes to where you fall in this range there are many many variables and the biggest one probably is not "will this decision enhance or lessen the chance of having my name in lights?"

Furthermore, its almost impossible to discern, except in your OWN case,  whether "timid" flying is being done because someone wants to see their name in lights, or because they want to survive their flight, and frankly.. its nobody's business but their own.

[mtnman]

Honestly, I can't see how eliminating the "Kills Landed" message would change the game in the slightest.  Just as I can't see that it would change the game if the message popped up for every single successful landing, kills scored or not.  Or if we only had it displayed for landing 30 kills or more.

If you want to get rid of a message that matters, why not get rid of the "Killed By" and "You killed" messages instead?  If anything "hurts" in this game it's embarrassment...  The threat of failure and the accompanying embarassment could easily sway someone from diving into a fight.  And being killed by someone who's going to possibly gloat over it, or call you names for the way you fight could be incentive to avoid the fights to begin with.

Make the fights "anonymous" and the issue is solved...  Likewise, eliminating individual names could serve the same purpose.

Without knowing who shot you down, or who you shot down, we wouldn't need any messages at all...  "You were shot down by a Knight 109" would be pretty pointless, wouldn't it?

I guess I see the "Kills Landed" message mattering to the game and fight quality about as much as the shade of green used on the "Beacon" light.

[mtnman]

Man, just think how different channel 200 would be if you never had any idea who you'd fought, killed, or been killed by...

[moot]

What would you think of the kills and assists only being confirmed once done with the flight?  Getting only, in flight, something like "unconfirmed kill on (planetype)"?

[Wingnutt]

What would you think of the kills and assists only being confirmed once done with the flight?  Getting only, in flight, something like "unconfirmed kill on (planetype)"?

good idea, I would even go so far as NO indication during flight other than that of your own eyes..   if you land of course, name in lights, but if you ditch/bail/die only you (nobody else obviousley) get nfo (shot down: player X, player Y.. shot down by: player Z)

[mtnman]

What would you think of the kills and assists only being confirmed once done with the flight?  Getting only, in flight, something like "unconfirmed kill on (planetype)"?

Personally, I don't think I'd mind that.  

And I'm not actually in favor of eliminating knowing who we fight/kill/die to.  I'm just saying the effect of eliminating that would (IMO) dwarf the effect of removing the Kills Landed message.

Knowing who we're fighting almost has to have an effect on the way we fight.  Maybe not as much for those of us who are pretty confident in our abilities.  And it likely affects our fights after a kill is scored.  

For example, I generally don't mind going up against 2 or sometimes 3 other planes.  However, if I suspected that the two guys who were teaming up on me were highly skilled, would I be as quick to jump in and get pasted?  What if I flew into a 3 v 1, and killed a Muppet, causing me to believe the other two pilots were Muppets, and were working as wingmen to kill me?  Would my fight be the same as if I flew into a 3 v 1 and killed a numbers guy, causing me to suspect that the other two were numbers guys too?

Compare those two scenarios to a completely anonymous environment.  My fight mentality would be much more based on numbers and plane type than on percieved skill of my opponents.

[Lusche]

Man, just think how different channel 200 would be if you never had any idea who you'd fought, killed, or been killed by...

Result? Maybe more hypocrisy?

All those players vocally detesting HOing or spawncamping could now start to do exactly that, with not much risk of getting "caught" (unless films is checked, of course)
(In addition to all those that already are calleing out dweebs on CH200 while doing the same themselves)

[moot]

Personally, I don't think I'd mind that.  

And I'm not actually in favor of eliminating knowing who we fight/kill/die to.  I'm just saying the effect of eliminating that would (IMO) dwarf the effect of removing the Kills Landed message.

Knowing who we're fighting almost has to have an effect on the way we fight.  Maybe not as much for those of us who are pretty confident in our abilities.  And it likely affects our fights after a kill is scored.  

For example, I generally don't mind going up against 2 or sometimes 3 other planes.  However, if I suspected that the two guys who were teaming up on me were highly skilled, would I be as quick to jump in and get pasted?  What if I flew into a 3 v 1, and killed a Muppet, causing me to believe the other two pilots were Muppets, and were working as wingmen to kill me?  Would my fight be the same as if I flew into a 3 v 1 and killed a numbers guy, causing me to suspect that the other two were numbers guys too?

Compare those two scenarios to a completely anonymous environment.  My fight mentality would be much more based on numbers and plane type than on percieved skill of my opponents.

I can't think of a reason to side for either one of those two.. There doesn't seem to be a reason to remove that info from the player. Even less if that info is just delayed - if it were still available elsewhere (e.g. the player vs players stats pages). It would make people keep better track of things though, they'd have less of a crutch. I tend to treat players based on how they're flying more than who they are.  Most people fly differently from day to day.

Maybe there's better solutions going about this another way.. Maybe instead of removing what we have, the way things are reported could be changed without removing any of it.  e.g. if it were changed so that you only knew who you fought in your flight by seeing it on the clipboard, and if that post-flight report also showed stats like hit% and kill/time (or some other stats favored by "courageous" flying), it'd sort of direct players towards more fighting and grab their attention away from the meaninglessness (as far as good fights are concerned) of rank.

[NoBaddy]

What would you think of the kills and assists only being confirmed once done with the flight?  Getting only, in flight, something like "unconfirmed kill on (planetype)"?

I like it!!! Sort of an AAR after each ride. You could have the option to save the text (perhaps to go with a film) or not.   

[Guppy35]

In the end I believe that too often the desire to see the name in lights creates a timidness in folks who see that as the sign of success, not the success of having flown a good flight and fought a good fight. 

I see folks mention that they like it when they land em as a squad.  How often is that also a sign of nothing more then a mob that crowded over a base and vulched or picked the guys taking off until they rtb out of bullets to land their 'kills'?

Obviously it's not up to me, but I wish somehow the scoring system promoted the fight more then it promoted timidness.

[mtnman]

I fail to grasp how making the fights more meaningless will improve anything.  In a game where any real incentive to do well is limited to the arguably flawed scoring system, or the approval of fellow players, I'm not convinced that removing any of that will help...

The scoring system could easily be improving things overall as it is, as could the Kills Landed message, at least to some extent.  Who knows, maybe the incentive of having your name in lights or improving score is enough incentive to get someone to try a better method of fighting than HOing...  In that case, having the current system in place would be better than removing any of it.  Score is probably the incentive many new players need to attempt to improve at all.  Remove the scoring system, remove the incentive...

The incentive of winning the approval/respect of fellow players is dependant on having respect for the other players.  Why would I care what someone thought of me if I had no respect for that player?  If someone I have no repsect for is ranting on chnl 200 because I HO him, where's my incentive to change?  If anything, I may HO more just to be a thorn in his side...  In that respect the constant stream of whines, slams, and general belittling on 200 and the BBS may actually be contributing to the "problem" more than the scoring system or any of the kill messages we receive.  Respect for my fellow players could easily be founded more on their BBS and chnl 200 behavior than on his/her flying ability.  I may only be exposed to player "X"s flying ability once or twice per year, but see his "mouth" on 200 over and over and over and over and over and over...  The fact that he kills me once a year isn't going to shape my impression of him much- even less-so if my SA isn't superb, since I won't "see" his skillful flying, and may attribute it to luck, picking, or whatever...

What other incentive is there?  What else could be added?