Stop the Search for a Japanese Bomber!, meet the Nakajima P1Y "Ginga" (Frances)

[Vermillion]

There has been alot of talk about what Japanese bomber we would like to see added to Aces High.

Anyone with experience from AW or WB's, can tell you that the Mitsubishi G4M "Betty" bomber is sorely lacking, and will make an extremely poor arena aircraft. Basically its suitable only as a "target drone" in scenario's and historical arenas  

Some have suggested the Kawanishi H8K "Emily" and while this aircraft certainly has impressive performance stats (for a Japanese Bomber), and is the closest thing the Japanese had to a 4 engine "bomber" and has excellent 20mm defensive guns. It is actually a 4 engined Flying Boat, intended for long range reconnaissance. This just makes it hard for me to think of this plane as the first japanese "bomber".

So I would like to introduce you to the Nakajima P1Y "Ginga" (Frances) an incredibly impressive late war (late 44-45) medium bomber (1,100 aircraft produced and saw combat).

 

 

 

This incredible bomber had a maximum speed of 355 mph at 20,015ft (300mph at SL), could climb to 20k in 11.3 minutes (initial ROC 2,000 ft/min), and could carry between 2,231 to 3,525 lbs of bombs (depending on variant)or a single 1,764lb torpedo. It could even carry drop tanks for a total range of 3200 nautical miles.

It had 10mm of armor plate for the pilot (none for bombardier/gunners) and self sealing fuel tanks. Which should help its survivability immensely.

Plus aesthetically, its the most visually appealing Japanese bomber of the war (just an added bonus   ).

However, its very impressive performance is somewhat offset by its relative lack of defenive armament, a single Type 99 20mm cannon in the nose, and another in a dorsal turret (sometimes replaced by a dual mount 12.7mm HMG).

Actually this bomber would fit perfectly into the AH planeset. It would be the fastest bomber by far, adequate toughness, and  great climb, but these would be offset by having a relatively small bomb load (slightly smaller to equal to the B-26) and having the least defensive armament of all the bombers in the game.

A perfectly balanced, yet surviveable bomber in the late war AH arena. And it even had a night fighter variant, which could be useful if that is ever added to the game.

The only other Japanese bomber that even comes close is the Mitsubishi Ki-67 "Peggy", and even it is a distant second.

Click below for the full stats on this great bomber.

Nakajima P1Y "Ginga" (Frances)



------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[Sundog]

If we can't have the Nanzan (The 4 engined buff the Japanese were developing) Then I would surely go for a Frances. Nice pics Vermillion.

 

[Pyro]

Lighten up Frances.  Ki-67 a distant second?  No way, at least it would have a decent chance of defending itself.



------------------
Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations

Most plans are just inaccurate predictions.

[Vermillion]

I don't know Pyro  

While the "Peggy" is a respectable bomber, I don't think its defensive armament is much better. It only has an additional single 12.7mm MG in the tail, and one each of 12.7mm MG in each side (these are only marginally helpful IMO at least in comparison to the added benefit of a tail gun). And the Frances has a 20mm nose gun, where the Peggy has a 12.7mm MG.

Plus it gives up 15-20mph to the Frances (depending on which source you believe), and needs an additional 3 minutes to 20,000ft.

A smart Frances driver could almost always keep you in his cone of fire for his tail gun (a nice and lethal 20mm at that   ), and with that much speed (for a bomber anyways) it will take you quite a while to setup effective attack runs, and the tail chase is gonna be a long one. The "gunner" benefit in AH would really hurt the attacking fighters in this case.

Hell, I can do this pretty much with the B26 right now, to the slower fighters in the game such as the Spitfire and N1K2. The Frances would give fits to anything but the very fastest of interceptors.

The Peggy would be nice, but I personally would still prefer the Frances  

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[juzz]

I like the idea of a Japanese bomber outrunning Wildcats.  

[bigred]

go pyro!!!

actually while i would love to see any of those 2 buffs make into AH (the 27th Sentai... is carefully monitoring the Japanese playset, waiting for it to properly fill out)

ive gotta go with PYRO on this one...

on paper they both seem really similar but in photos/combat reports, the ki-67 has a more "fast/extra-rugged b-25" feel to it, while the francis seems to fall more on the "mosquito" side of the buff family tree...

its a tough choice, but id go with the ki-67.  It gets listed EVERYWHERE as japan's best late-war buff... its gotta have some good points in there somewhere

-bigred

------------------

[funked]

Yep Frances is a pretty lady.  

[Karnak]

I'd still rather have a H8K2 "Emily" as the first Japanese bomber.

Sisu

[Ghosth]

Emily, Mavis,(Another flying boat)Francis, or KI-67? Why any one of these would be an asset and a draw to AH. Let us not forget however that eventually we will have CV forces to consider also. So when you pick & choose planes from the IJN stable lets not forget the Carrier attack planes.

However, I have to admit, haveing a 20mm stinger in the tail certainly sounds interesting.  
 

 

[Vermillion]

LOL!! Sundog you really confused me   I looked up the Nanzan, and wondered "What the hell does Sundog want that plane for??". The Nanzan, btw, is a single engined submarine borne attack bomber. Then I figured out that you were talking about the Nakajima G8N Renzan ("Rita"). Very interesting bird !! Fast (368mph), dual 20mm in dorsal, ventral, and tail, and dual 12.7mm MG elsewhere. Downside were small bomb load (2,000 lbs), and only 4 of them were made, which kind of puts it into that "what if" category. Very interesting though.

bigred, I think you have the gist of it. The Ki67 Peggy is more in the fast B25/B26 ish category, where the P1Y Frances is more in the Mosquito category. Both are very capable bombers, but we have the B26 to fit that "niche" in the planeset, while on the other hand we don't have anything like the Frances or the Mosquito. So I guess thats why I prefer the Frances.  

And before all you British plane nuts jump in and try to steal the thread   Screaming for the Mosquito instead, your getting your Lancaster so be happy. Plus the Mosquito don't have a 20mm tail stinger  

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 06-18-2000).]

[juzz]

Psst.... Ju 88S-3  

[Manx]

It's moot really, but I have Renzan's bombload to be 4,000 kg.

Here are the production numbers of the various candidates if that's a factor:
H8K Emily 167
PiY Frances 1,100
B7A Grace 110
G8N Rita 4
Ki-67 Peggy 707

[Vermillion]

Yes and No Manx   We're both right depending on how you view it.

I went back to check because that number looked awful small to me as well.

From Francillons book, for the Renzan it says...

 

Bomb Load-Normal: four 250kg bombs (551 lbs)
-Maximum: two 2,000 kg (4,409lb) bombs

I just took the "normal" load number I guess in the first post, but I guess the technically correct answer was a bombload between 1,000 kg to 4,000 kg (2,200 lbs to 8,800 lbs)

Of course with a total production of four, who can say what "normal" actually was  

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 06-18-2000).]

[bigred]

hey verm, did some more digging on the ki-67/p1y1...

check this out....

ki-67 peggy
(traditional split flaps on wings)
crew-7
weight (empty) 19,068 lb

P1Y1 francis
(fowler flaps PLUS dive brakes)
crew-3
weight (empty) 14,600

im starting to think that in operational use, these 2 birds would be VASTLY different, the peggy does in fact seem very (b-25/a-26) in use("catch me if you can and im tough as nails when you do").  The P1Y1 is really making me think "mosquito-level bombing, OH, CRAP im getting jumped, lets JABO this baby vroooomm" in open arena use....

ive got to admit, the fowlerflaps/dive brakes REALLY surprized me... im thinking the francis is SUBSTANTIALLY more maneuverable, with the peggy substantially tougher.

-bigred (now really wanting both buffs)

------------------

[dosequis]

I agree and vote for the Frances. AH has done a good job of modelling planes that are not a straight overlap with WB but still have high historical relevance.

The Frances is then an alternative to the Mossie, and with 1100 produced, it is formally relevant to any planeset.

In addition, it's survivable in the MA, which is a huge plus. It complements the bombers already there, and it's an Axis bomber, something that is needed for any sort of scenarios.

A great choice.

XX