Beating a flat turn

[shiv]

Twice yesterday I was in an F4U-1A 1v1 on the deck, once against a spit, once against a P51.  Each time the bandit eventually went into a hard flat turn.  I was able to follow and use full flaps to eventually out-turn and get them but is there a better, more efficient way to get a solution? 

To use one example. I was in the right rear quarter of the spit which is banking left when he went into a hard flat turn left.  Outside of following him, what should I have done?

Thanks in advance.

Shiv

[PFactorDave]

Maybe a displacement roll, I guess it would depend a lot on your E state at the moment.

[shiv]

Thanks Factor.  Not quite sure I follow though.

E is fairly low, as I've been working the bandit over with flaps and using the vertical (as I understand it) to wear down his E.  At this point I've gotten behind him and he's panicking. 

(In practice duels I've been pitching up and rolling back left but it doesn't get me more than a snapshot at the 180 point of his turn circle, with the added disadvantage of losing angles after the snapshot.   So that doesn't seem to be the answer, although I could be doing it wrong.)

[TexMurphy]

If I understand you right you where on his six and couldnt turn the flat turn as hard as he could... am I correct?

High and Low YoYo´s are nice in this situation. You do want to get some angles into it especially if you are in the worse turner.

Tex

[Anaxogoras]

Twice yesterday I was in an F4U-1A 1v1 on the deck, once against a spit, once against a P51.  Each time the bandit eventually went into a hard flat turn.  I was able to follow and use full flaps to eventually out-turn and get them but is there a better, more efficient way to get a solution? 

Why bother when you have hover-flaps?

[shiv]

Why bother when you have hover-flaps?

Well, yeah:) but I was hoping there was something more efficient so if there's a second con in the area I can clean it up a little quicker. 

I'll try yoyos also Tex, thanks for that.

[Saxman]

As Tex said, start with using high and low-yo's and use the vertical element to eat up the turn radius while keeping your airspeed up.

Also, I like to use a sort of lag/pursuit roll: Pull up vertical over the top of him then start rolling into the bandit's turn. Once you get him centered in your up/forward-up view keep him there as you pull through to drop back in behind him.

The beauty of this one is that it's a LOT harder for him to track your position than a simple high/low-yo so he may lose sight of you, stop turning and do something that gives you an even cleaner shot (you're going to get a lot of deflection and snapshots with this). This is especially the case if he's riding the edge of a blackout and his vision starts to tunnel.

I use this all the time against Spixteens in a 1A. Unless I'm up against a decent stick I usually have the shot on the first try.

[jerkins]

Very slight yoyo's can help.  If you have a second con, it is very likely that you will need to break the the first and evade the second.  When outnumbered, you need to be willing to give up shots in order to stay alive to get another shot later.

[shiv]

Thanks guys, think I'm getting an understanding of this.  Next time instead of following the turn I'll see if I can put these into practice. <S>

[BaldEagl]

Put the nose up while rolling into his turn direction, pull it over the top and drop back in behind him for the kill.  Pretty much the same as what Saxman said.

[trotter]

The advice about getting above and rolling with your bandit's turns is good advice, but if you are really low on E and (getting back to your original question) find yourself stuck in a flat turn, sometimes it's not the worst thing in the world. If you are sure you are going to have sustained turning advantage, and sure the con can't get enough angles to accelerate away, and sure your compromised E position isn't going to cause you any trouble later, a flat turn might be an efficient enough way to get the kill. Again, this is only if you don't have the E to get above and follow Saxman's advice.

So don't think that a flat turn victory is the worst possible outcome, use it when you have no other options.

[shiv]

Yeah, Trotter, I may be trying to get too fancy.  I guess nothing wrong with winning the easy way if the con gives me the opportunity.  I'll try these out though in the TA and try to get a sense of the options if it's a more complicated scenario.

<S>

[Qrsu]

Going into the vertical is key. If you know your turn radius is wider than the opponent, go up and keep the opponent on your wing tip(if he's in a left turn, keep him on your left wing tip.) When you pull up, keep rolling to keep him on that wingtip and when you've got the angles roll in behind him. It might take a few goes but generally he's burnt enough of his energy in the flat turn, you've maintained energy by staying vertical and rolling with him slightly to create angles to make a good pass at his six o'clock. Just remember that if you're in an aircraft with flaps that flaps = lift AND drag so make sure you're using them when you're pulling elevator to make a tighter turn but don't let them affect your climb.

[mtnman]

A couple things-

Why do anything "fancier" than what's required?  If that opponent can be beaten by something as simple as a quick flat turn I'd just do it and be done.  Quick, easy, and recover your SA as soon as you can...  You don't need to impress your opponent by flying an aerobatic routine before you shoot him.  I'd take the flat turn option if I was nearly set up for a shot, and could get guns on him to finish the fight very quickly.  If it was likely to turn into a Lufberry though I wouldn't, or if our speeds were too much different.  

If I had the speed I'd pull up over him, roll in and shoot him before he could recover E (and maybe even SA) from his flat turn.  This is a "safer", "smarter" alternative.  It allows you to maintain an E advantage, and quickly scan the skies as you go through your manuever (SA).  You can apply pressure to him without getting overly fixated or committed, and that lets you notice the next guy coming in.  Holding your E will also give you more options for this fight as well as the next.  

If you try that initial flat turn and miss your shot on the spit, things can go sour pretty quickly.  It's not so bad with the pony though.  If you had the pony slow often the best option is to just pressure the heck out of him until he's dead.  Don't let him get straightened out and fast again.  Against the pony, I generally try to force him slow.  Against the spit I'll avoid getting him too slow if it means I need to get slow with him.  I'd rather fight fast against a fast spit than slow against a slow spit.  I reverse that for ponies.

Once on the deck in a slow Lufberry against a spit, you're looking for trouble.  You may be able to turn a smaller circle than him, but you won't be able to do it as quickly as him.  The result will probably be him crawling around behind you, unless he foolishly decides to reverse his turn.  Flaps will tighten your turn radius, but hurt your speed and turn rate.  If I can't kill the spit within the first few seconds (3-4) in the flat turn I'm getting out of it.  Do it early, before you're too slow.

[shiv]

Well not necessarily fancy, safer and smarter was what I was looking for.  I just didn't really have a good idea of the alternatives, having just flown spits and pulled g's for so long.  Thanks for the input. <S>