A reverse question.

[Lye-El]

Thanks Murdr, those were interesting films to watch. When I roll out like that it's usually "Which way did he go George which did he go?" to quote and OLD cartoon character. Or *Boom* as my timing as well as my SA suck. But when it does work to perfection and the Bandit is right in front of me, then, and only then, my piss poor gunnery lights up the sky! Not the Bandit, just the sky.

In all seriousness those were good films and I liked the way you narrated the fight. Pointing out his attack position and speed and how you were going to handle it. Want to come to my house for training? I have Beer.

[BaldEagl]

That's an awful place to be in.  I sympathize, especially if you're alone with other cons around.

I'm just hypothizing here (was that a new word?) but I'd probably let the guy close to 800-1000 then start a barrel roll.  Just before reaching the top I'd pull it into a wingover then immediately reverse into a barrel roll in the opposite direction about 90 degrees off my original flight path (not quite).  The key to this being to judge my opponent, do a series of manouvers he's not expecting, gain angles, keep him from getting a shot and hopefully get him to lose sight so I can take the initiative.

As Fugative said, just do someting. 

That bait one way then reverse move has worked quite well for me over the years in all types of situations though.  You'd be surprised how often the guy commits and loses sight of you.  If he doesn't then you know you're in for a tough fight.  If he does he's an easy kill.

[TexMurphy]

That's an awful place to be in.  I sympathize, especially if you're alone with other cons around.

I'm just hypothizing here (was that a new word?) but I'd probably let the guy close to 800-1000 then start a barrel roll.  Just before reaching the top I'd pull it into a wingover then immediately reverse into a barrel roll in the opposite direction about 90 degrees off my original flight path (not quite).  The key to this being to judge my opponent, do a series of manouvers he's not expecting, gain angles, keep him from getting a shot and hopefully get him to lose sight so I can take the initiative.

Yepp this is what I do when the enemy is within 800-1000. But reason Im asking about 1.5k is that I feel I shouldnt have to let him come closer. Because afterall the barrel manouver or scissors when he gets even closer is a bit too much "desperation" moves. What I am looking for is a way to utilize the extra separation and turn the table in a safer way.

I still think that Fugative and TC provide the best option so far. Especially since its a manouver I use high alt situations.

But I think my main mistake has been that Ive been trying to find a way to reverse it into a merge instead of getting him to overshoot and rolling in on him.

Tex

[TequilaChaser]

Yepp this is what I do when the enemy is within 800-1000. But reason Im asking about 1.5k is that I feel I shouldnt have to let him come closer. Because afterall the barrel manouver or scissors when he gets even closer is a bit too much "desperation" moves. What I am looking for is a way to utilize the extra separation and turn the table in a safer way.

I still think that Fugative and TC provide the best option so far. Especially since its a manouver I use high alt situations.

But I think my main mistake has been that Ive been trying to find a way to reverse it into a merge instead of getting him to overshoot and rolling in on him.

Tex

Tex, the 1st #1-feeler post, I made above, does not necessarily have you drawing your opponent in closer than lets say 1.0k, or 1000k........with the gentle fake, utilizing the flat turn scenario...you would be very surprised ( maybe not ) on just how many others will pull up, or pull into a High Yoyo, in the same direction of your "faking flat turn bait maneuver". This was the 1st part to see what your opponent knows and how he reacts..most will pull up/pull into a High yoyo or similar way to early.........simple reason is they fly to cautiously ( not saying that this is a bad thing ).....but it is the ideal response one would hope for.....then from here, is where, as Ren stated before- above, you can reverse and merge....from experience...more times than I can remember , you should find that going full "wholey batman bat turn  " you will be climbing right up under their low six......perfect belly shot opportunity..if not at least you are behind their 3-9 Line.........

It does take timing and practice.....and I must emphasize this is easier pulled off on your average  or lower players......( with some above average players at times ).......

Ren, was correct when saying 1.5K offers well enough room to perform a proper reversal back into your enemy.........

you do not want to be TOO FAR out away from them to give them more time to decide how to counter your reversal......my thoughts/experience anyway

I know there is many times people see alt of these post, saying...
*draw them in
* perform a Barrel Roll, Rolling Scissors, Defensive Barrel Roll, or Lag Dispacement Roll
* other bait & hook fighting from negative E standpoints

being proactive, making him counter your move, and not let him dictate yours is key to victory.........as I said above, you have been here a good while, and I know you know these things..........you just might of come to a stalemate/plataeu at this current moment in time.......I know this is something you can and will easily overcome........it really is all about K.I.S.S. mentality for the most part.......to much complex thinking will sometimes turn into your own demize......

Good Luck, Sir

[Rolex]

I just wanted to add one little comment to all the good advice you're getting... airspeed. Since you're 1.5K ahead, you have some time to think how you're going to get to cornering velocity for your big move. Nine times out of ten, the guy behind you is more anxious than you as he's licking his chops for the kill and will be coming as fast as he can.

Use his nervousness and lag in reaction time while you hit cornering speed for that maximum dps (degrees per second) instantaneous burst you need to change the angles and the fight. Sometimes a nose-down break turn for 3 seconds at corning velocity, followed by a barrel roll, will get you out of being defensive.

[humble]

I've never really thought about it in that regard but as soon as I know i'm -E I'm normally off the gas a bit looking to maximize closure and then slightly nose down in the break turn actually speeding up a bit even as I tighten the turn and then reverse back into the bandits guns pass...so in effect I'm trying to get just a little slow and then speed up into the sweet spot as I break...

[Dawger]

Shaw cover guns defense in several different places in his excellent work and the techniques he describes are all still pertinent.

Step 1 is to try to prevent the attacker from reaching guns range. If closure is low or your aircraft has a definite speed advantage try first to keep the attacker outside of guns range. Many factors go into this decision. Aircraft types, closure, altitude difference, defender altitude and present heading.

If the attacker has a speed advantage due to aircraft types it is difficult to remain outside of guns range.

High closure rate may prevent staying out of guns range.

A high attacker may have enough altitude to trade for speed to close to guns range.

If the defender is on the deck you may not be able to grab speed fast enough to prevent the attacker closing to guns range.

If the defender is headed away from friendly fighters and friendly airfields and towards more bandits and bandit airfields keeping the bandit outside of guns range while flying closer to Indian Country is probably a poor choice for long term survival.

So if you cannot keep the attacker outside of guns range its time to defeat his shot.

A hard break is in order. The aim is to get him forward of the 3-9 Line into the forward hemisphere, if possible. Put the the bandit into the plane of turn and pull. This will increase the attacker angle off the tail most rapidly. Caution is warranted with an in plane break turn. It solves some the attacker's sighting problems so care must be use to only use in plane turns when bandit range and/or nose position preclude a shot opportunity. The high G and angle off increase the attacker's lead requirement for a shot.

If a break turn can bring the bandit to near 180 degrees AOT (nose to nose or head on) then the fight is essentially neutral with regard to geometry. Energy states may differ considerably. If the attacker tries for a high aspect snapshot (Commonly referred to as Head On or HO) at this point it is easily defeated with standard techniques (Out of plane maneuver, unload and roll, or cross control). If you are prepared to enter an angles fight with the bandit, grab angles with a hard lead turn while defeating the bandit's attempt for a high aspect snapshot by maneuvering out of plane. The snapshot attempt will allow you to grab decisive angles.

If you wish to extend out of the merge pass after the break avoid the high aspect snapshot using unload and roll or cross control jink and then extend away from the fight. The bandit may or may not be able to re-engage but if he tries a high aspect snapshot he will go through the merge before initiating any hard maneuver and you should be able to open up some space.

If the attacker does not try for a high aspect shot, he is most likely intending to go for an angles fight. He will be (if not already) in a high G lead turn. This is where your neutral merge practice takes over.

If you cannot get the bandit near 180 degrees AOT using the hard break, make every attempt to get the bandit on the lift vector when he reaches guns range. This complicates his shot by requiring the most lead. Here is a decision point. And it is a very complicated decision. You must now maneuver out of plane which requires a roll either in the direction you are already turning (low side) or reversing to the other direction.

If the bandit is in lag pursuit and the G level on your aircraft is high there is an excellent possibility that you have forced the attacker into a max G turn and he cannot pull hard enough to get his nose into lead for a shot. In this case you are in a good position to cause him to overshoot to the outside of your break. In this situation you can quickly gain offensive position by rolling wing level (reversing your initial break) and pulling the nose above the horizon. This will defeat his guns shot (remember he was right at guns range). Look back and you should see the bandit crossing your tail. Roll the lift vector towards the bandit and pull. The resulting barrel roll (Lag displacement roll) will place you in the bandit's rear hemisphere. You may or may not get a shot opportunity, depending on relative E states at this point.

If your initial break turn puts the bandit on the lift vector and his nose position indicates pure or lead pursuit a high side reversal of turn may be a poor choice. If you have enough altitude continue the roll to an inverted or all the way around using a nose low barrel roll. A bandit in lead pursuit trying for a tracking shot will have difficulty following the resulting split S or nose low barrel roll. (Use the Split S when you have altitude. Use the nose low barrel roll when you do not). Quite often you can get a bandit to fly into the ground using these maneuvers.

Many times the attacker will anticipate all of these maneuvers and will be rapidly decelerating in anticipation of staying in the saddle. Be wary of this situation. As soon as you recognize this situation the better. On the deck, you have to get into maximum deceleration flat scissors and force the decelerating bandit to overshoot. He started with closure and you must use his closure against him while it is still there. If you initiate the break on an approaching bandit and the closure rate does not increase rapidly then the bandit is decelerating in anticipation. Abandon the break immediately and extend.

If you put the bandit on the lift vector and he is in lag and closure is low, he is decelerating and staying in lag pursuit. Things will get rapidly worse if you do nothing to defeat this. On the deck, you will have to start a flat scissors and take it into a rolling scissors if you have the energy. If not you will be committed to staying in the flat scissors and forcing the overshoot. A good, timely flat scissors will normally force an overshoot within three reversals. Watch the bandit carefully. If he goes nose high abandon the scissors and unload to prepare for the next break turn.

At altitude, you have several choices if the bandit stays in the saddle. Defensive spiral or a descending scissors work well in particular situations. Try to make the fight as three dimensional as possible to complicate the attackers tracking issues. If he loses sight for just moment you can create separation. If you see the bandits belly he cant see you, use that moment to create separation.

[Steve]

but I'd probably let the guy close to 800-1000 then start a barrel roll.

  Bang you're dead. If the pilot is competent. On the deck with slow clsoure... this move... meat on the table. I wouldn't even have to change my flight vector enough to burn any E to put you away... .thanks!

At 1.5 distance with slow closure, you have plenty of time to do a mini-high yoyo and get your nose around to him(then avoid the inevitable HO). I like this move because it is aggressive and you are forcing your opponent to a decision. Also, this move  will quickly tell you if you are in with a noob or a vet. If he pulls a vert move after the merge, you are in for a fight.  If he pulls hard around, looking for your 6, you have yourself a quick kill. If he simply keeps going, which happens alot, you won't get a fight but at least you are clear.

 If this doesn't appeal to you, here's a very very basic move, that's easy for a relatively new person to use.  Do a flat break turn but not so hard as to make your opponent think he can't get a shot. If he pulls for lead, pull your turn harder.  If he tries to pull for lead again, consider chopping throttle(unless already slow) then reverse your turn as he straightens out(when he realizes he can't get guns on). You'll be on his 6. If he stays in the turn with you, your chopped throttle will put him out in front or 3-9 at worst.
If he goes up, cob the throttle, WEP and rebuild E for the next round. The problem with this move is that a seasoned stick is gonna chop and displace  a little bit, whether with an aileron or rudder move or yoyo, to stay behind you. Or, if there are multiple cons in the area, he is going to go up and reassess whether he should continue the fight(he'll still be on top of you). Fortunately 95% of the arena has no idea that the engine has throttle settings beyond "idle" and "full" so you'll often end up behind the guy.

[Sonicblu]

I was in this exact situation It turns out i was following Shawk.  At 1.5 he nosed up just a bit then split s and merged under me i was close to the deck on the merge i though oh i ll just pull up and rope him. Well he pull my spider man undies over my head. ouch.

I assumed that i was folloing a runner who was just turning as a last ditch effort looking back on it he was getting just enough extentsion and alt to reverse the hell out of me.

Bottom line I would have made a better choice on the merge if I had had more mental respect for the pilot I was following.

I agree just start reversing at 1.5 and learn what works best. After the reversal it is just another merge.

I love to drag guys away from the horde with this intent. Let them get on my six and then reverse them. I like a large flat turn and a murdr reversal basically roll over the top as they are getting gun solution.

If they have less e I will pull up and split s. or a good sneak e merge is to flat turn slowly, point nose down gaining as much e as you can then pull into them hard before they get gun solution about 800 yrds. hope this helps/

[Murdr]

Want to come to my house for training? I have Beer.

    

[TexMurphy]

Just want to give back some feedback after having worked on this for a while.

Let me say it works like a charm.

Yesterday I was chasing a enemy and I had another one sneakin up on me. Was a nice time to try this. So I let him close slowly then I go into the turn and roll out of it as he closes in.  He went straight up and I followed as I rolled out of it but I didnt get a shot of. I thought I had him when he did that tight lilttle turn that 109s can do and that I have to learn. This got him closing on my six.

I then realized that Im going into left obelique turns with a 109 which really isnt desired so I manage to turn it around to the right and set up a new front aspect merge with him. From here on it was much nicer. Was very low speed but he had to level out first or loose it.

Im very happy with how this fight and others where I have used this manouver have turned out.

Thanks guys.
Tex

[TequilaChaser]

I never had a doubt 1, good to hear that you got it working for ya, thats awesome, Tex! wtg