Author Topic: They Knew Pearl Harbour Was Coming  (Read 1740 times)

Offline Shifty

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Re: They Knew Pearl Harbour Was Coming
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2009, 10:11:42 PM »

I disagree.  Had the Japanese Navy not taken out our battleship fleet, they would have ended up killing the entire fleet, including CVs (which, per American naval doctrine, would have been used only in a support roll to BB's). This was American naval strategy prior to Dec 7th.(of course, this had changed by sunrise, Dec 8th.)  Battleships were the spearhead, supported by carrier aircraft as recon tools.  The USN would have ridden its' big guns into destruction, versus a navy that utilized carrier tactics in an offensive way.

 Were that to happen, the United States would have been hard pressed to mount anything less than a continental shelf, west coast defense for 3 years or so.  During that time, Japan would have had the ability to consolidate its' gains in the Pacific and build its' industrial complex, something it never had the time to do in the real war.  With the raw materials and oil it had annexed in the Far East and South Pacific..... we would have had absolutely zero options, save to sue for peace.  We had no allies left in the Pacific.... Australia had no means to do anything but hold on. 

Our industry wasn't retooled for war production, fully, until the spring of 1943.  The destruction of the Battleships in Pearl was probably the reason we won the war.  It forced our strategy to shift.

I disagree. While I do agree with your discription of US naval doctrine at the time of Pearl harbor is correct. The Pearl harbor raid was just that a raid. It was not planned or designed for an extended contested battle. There was no plan to implement a carrier battle at sea. It was a hit and run raid from it's conception, no battle plan in place other than a sneak attack. Admiral Nagumo failed to make a third strike because he did not know the location of the US Carriers since they were not at anchor in Pearl Harbor. The third strike may well have been more decisive than the previous two had they targeted the submarine facilities and the tank farm. Nagumo was too worried about losing his fleet to fight a decisive battle. Which would involve hanging around long enough to mount an effective search for the American fleet and taking a chance on his own task force being located and coming under attack. So he kept to the plan, do as much damage as possible with a little risk to his task force as possible and get the hell out of Dodge.

The Japanese although the masters of carrier warfare at this time were still victims of the big gun club in their Navy. Even Yamamotto's Midway battle plan called for the Main Body of battleships to move in and deliver the killing blow against the American Fleet at Midway once the carriers had softend the enemy up. Another thing to remember about the influence of the gun club on the IJN. The Japanese were committed to building more big battleships. The Yamato had just recently joined the fleet at the time of Midway. Her sisters the Musashi and Shinano were under construction as well. The Shinano was converted to a carrier only after the carrier losses suffered by the IJN at Midway. There were also plans for a fourth Yamoto class super battleship. These monsters were a huge waste of resources that could have gone into fleet carriers. Even though the Shinano was converted to a carrier, by the time this was done her construction was too far along to be a proper fleet carrier. Having limited hanger facilities and repair shops. She was finished out to be more of shuttle carrier allowing planes to transfer from land bases to her deck then off again to other carriers. The whole Yamato class episode shows an attitude of the Battleship first.

Japan fared very well in the early days of the war. She enjoyed a numbers advantage in warships including both Carriers and Battleships. Japan could not keep up with American production period. Just because Japan lost the Battle of Midway in the summer of 1942 and Guadalcanal in the fall of 1942. This did nothing to take back her gains of natural resources in Southeast Asia, so were was all this production you speak of? Japan could have never kept pace with American production and the advantage America had of not only production facilities but natural resources in country.

America of the 1940s wasn't like the America of today. There was no mass media telling people everyday America was bad and everything was hopeless. There was no hard to identify insurgent force hiding behind civilians. There was a foreign military power that had attacked America's territories, friends, and killed American military members, and civilians. People then were tougher physically and mentally. They were not the type of people to sit fearfully on their sorry a**es blaming their leadership, their own country, and hoping if they make nice with the enemy it wouldn't happen again. They filled recruiting stations and factories, then went after the threat to ensure it didn't happen again.

As far as the USS Ward's attack on the mini sub not causing the fleet to sail and the launching of hundreds of aircraft to look for a threat... Nobody in the USN expected a carrier raid or attack of any kind on Hawaii. A submarine off the mouth of Pearl Harbor was probably expected and probably not considered a huge threat to a fleet in anchor in the harbor. Plus remember Command and Control in a peacetime 1940s era military was nothing like what you have today. If you really want to wonder why one side allowed itself to get slapped so hard in the opening stages of conflict, look at how the USSR ignored the German buildup just before Operation Barbarosa.

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Offline RMrider

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Re: They Knew Pearl Harbour Was Coming
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2009, 10:38:00 PM »
EDIT:  :salute
« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 10:42:29 PM by RMrider »
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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: They Knew Pearl Harbour Was Coming
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2009, 10:39:34 PM »
I don't really know what a "bluff" is, terrain-speaking, but you can see the harbor perfectly from half the island.

Just my .02, I think we knew Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked, and I think we did the right thing in allowing it to be attacked. Just hear me out. China was being torn to hell and back by the Japanese. Japan was fortifying islands dangerously close to our pacific holdings. Germany was running rampant in Europe. Basically, the world was going to hell in a hand basket, and there was nothing we could do, because the American people still adored the idea of isolationism. Meanwhile, I believe the government and the military realized the importance of intervening in these terrible world events. But, with America unwilling to support a bloody 4 year war, what other way could we get into it without a  very convenient attack on American soil that could convince every-day Americans that their lives were in danger if they didn't take the war to the enemy? I think we moved the carriers because they would have been practically defenseless, but we left the BBs so that the Japanese would continue their attack, and because the BBs had a much better chance of defending themselves. Junky, even if this WAS a conspiracy, that does not mean these men died in vain. Their deaths allowed America to intervene on behalf of millions of innocent people around the world, suffering under Japanese of German rule. IMHO, if Pearl Harbor isn't a "conspiracy", then it is one of the best coincidences in history.

Absolutely mind boggling.   
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Offline Angus

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Re: They Knew Pearl Harbour Was Coming
« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2009, 03:38:01 AM »
Well, the whole gamble from the Japanese point of view was about killing the US naval strength in one blow, or at least cause enough damage to follow things up to victory. With that succeeding, japan had no foe to fear. The British had enough trouble in the Atlantic and at home, Germany would also give the USA pressure in the Atlantic, and the Nazi armies were at the gates of Moscow. With some 2-3 years in peace from the U.S. naval power the Japanese planned to permanently fix their strongholds and resource matters and thereby settling as a power big enough.
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Offline hlbly

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Re: They Knew Pearl Harbour Was Coming
« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2009, 07:37:31 AM »
I think you guys are confusing sub facilities with dry docks . Also you are forgetting the japanese still had the battleship or black shoe navy syndrome . Take a look at what they called the main force at Midway . Also in the BB vs. BB fights in the Pacific it wasn't the IJN that won .

Offline Angus

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Re: They Knew Pearl Harbour Was Coming
« Reply #35 on: March 29, 2009, 11:49:28 AM »
The Japs had the big gun disease as well. Actually, the Japanese armed forces were quite torn up with their differences.
However, they recognized the might of naval air power, and were, right after the British to prove it's value.
It must also not be discarded that once their brightest planners realized that the carriers had escaped in the Pearl Harbour deal, their word was "Oh, crap!" Yamamoto realized that Japan could not sustain a prolonged war with the USA so a complete KO was needed. He was right.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Dm6

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Re: They Knew Pearl Harbour Was Coming
« Reply #36 on: March 29, 2009, 01:42:00 PM »
yeah, we let them kill 2,000+ and most of our pacific fleet to prove a point to the american people... give me a break

To call pearl  harbor one of the best conincidences is just insanity. America knew we were going to get involved at some point, we technically were already involved by shipping supplies to the British, this just sped the process up.

Conspiracy theories are complex solutions to situations that have a simple answer, an answer that people don't want to accept as the truth. Take 9/11, the whole government involvement thing is just too complex, and just insane, it simply was just a bunch of angry extremists, but some people don't want to believe that for whatever reason.

"Just a bunch of angry extremists"   THey were our little potato till they turned on us....WE trained and funded them.    Show me were and how the goverment was NOT involved......... You cant see the forest for all the trees.    Its like training a pit bull to kill other dogs then it get loose one day and kill your own child..... Whos DUCKING fault is it?

Offline Simaril

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Re: They Knew Pearl Harbour Was Coming
« Reply #37 on: March 29, 2009, 06:55:35 PM »
"Just a bunch of angry extremists"   THey were our little potato till they turned on us....WE trained and funded them.    Show me were and how the goverment was NOT involved......... You cant see the forest for all the trees.    Its like training a pit bull to kill other dogs then it get loose one day and kill your own child..... Whos DUCKING fault is it?



Fog.
Of.
War.


It's what the conspiracy theorists never allow for in their smoothly drawn lines of "proof," but it's what EVERYONE who's ever tried to run a complex operation deals with daily. I'd bet most of those conspiracy buffs haven't encountered the way any real life plan goes to heck in a handbasket in very short order -- or if they have, they've never applied their reality experiences to their frankly unreal theories.

Pretty clear if you evaluate the actual evidence that no one expected there to be an attack on Pearl; conventional wisdom expected sudden attack on the Philippines and a major fleet engagement as the US attempted to relieve their Philippines garrison. Check out a book called "Final Verdict" -- written by a naval lawyer given complete carte blanche to interview, evaluate, and collect data...starting when the attack was fresh.


The prewar mindset rewarded compliance with doctrine rather than flexibility, so its no surprise that those in charge of deployed forces saw what they expected and didn't understand what didn't fit.
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Offline AWwrgwy

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Re: They Knew Pearl Harbour Was Coming
« Reply #38 on: March 29, 2009, 09:23:36 PM »
My argument was, if it was a "conspiracy" what difference would the amount of damage make.  It is the actual "underhanded, sneak attack" that is the issue.

Hence, sail the fleet before the attack you "know is coming" and still be outraged over the actual attack that was ineffective. 

You still get your war and you still have what you believe is the means to wage it.

Unless....  It was a conspiracy of the Military-Industrial Complex to cause a war in order to create the need for a rapid build up of war material to engage in said war.  New factories.  Massive contracts.  Lots of $$ to be made.

 :rofl


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Offline SKJohn

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Re: They Knew Pearl Harbour Was Coming
« Reply #39 on: March 29, 2009, 10:42:15 PM »
You guys just need to watch the Ben Affleck movie "Pearl Harbor" and all of your questions would be answered.  It's obvious that we knew the war was coming - remember when Doolittle tried to talk Ben Affleck out of going to the Eagle Squadron bevause he was gonna need all his best pilots?
Although its obvious from the movie that we knew we were going to be in the war, its equally as obvious that we didn't know when the attack would be - otherwise why would we have let the two greatest fighter pilots in the entire USSAC  (Rafe and Danny) be stuck in the sand asleep in a car when the attack came?
You'd be surprised at what you could learn if you would take the time to watch QUALITY shows like this instead of that rubbish on the History CHannel. . .

Offline Jouster

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Re: They Knew Pearl Harbour Was Coming
« Reply #40 on: March 29, 2009, 11:11:50 PM »
You guys just need to watch the Ben Affleck movie "Pearl Harbor" and all of your questions would be answered.  It's obvious that we knew the war was coming - remember when Doolittle tried to talk Ben Affleck out of going to the Eagle Squadron bevause he was gonna need all his best pilots?
Although its obvious from the movie that we knew we were going to be in the war, its equally as obvious that we didn't know when the attack would be - otherwise why would we have let the two greatest fighter pilots in the entire USSAC  (Rafe and Danny) be stuck in the sand asleep in a car when the attack came?
You'd be surprised at what you could learn if you would take the time to watch QUALITY shows like this instead of that rubbish on the History CHannel. . .

LOL :aok

Dang you are so right! Oh wait, wasn't Pearl Harbor being shown on the History Channel saturday night? Conspiracy or Coincidence? :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Offline JunkyII

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Re: They Knew Pearl Harbour Was Coming
« Reply #41 on: March 30, 2009, 07:40:50 AM »
I so want to speak my mind, but alas, I would be banned...
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Offline 33Vortex

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Re: They Knew Pearl Harbour Was Coming
« Reply #42 on: March 30, 2009, 07:53:52 AM »
Was going to say something here but... not on a public forum while my government is monitoring all internet traffic.

All I will say is, no country is left untouched by these men.

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Offline Delirium

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Re: They Knew Pearl Harbour Was Coming
« Reply #43 on: March 30, 2009, 08:15:17 AM »
Damn! I almost forgot my uniform!

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Offline james

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Re: They Knew Pearl Harbour Was Coming
« Reply #44 on: March 30, 2009, 09:23:06 AM »
Junky let me know when you are taking leave next. I like my sirloin medium well, you? Lol
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