Author Topic: Tank spawn question  (Read 588 times)

Offline T24

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Tank spawn question
« on: March 27, 2009, 12:41:33 PM »
On a Vbase raid a couple of nights ago, I was able to get behind the spawn hangar before it popped. When it popped (as my squaddies were moving on the rest of the base with M3s) I was able to get 4 kills while the enemy tanks were upping (camping is not very noble I know, but we were trying to take a base). I noted that the names of the kills were different, not the same guy over and over again. Then I got a kill on someone in a T34, and instantly when he respawned his barrel was facing 180 degrees backwards towards me and we each killed one another. It was from the time I shot and reloaded my M4 that he respawned and we each shot.

I have tried since then in several different ways to mimick that since some of the LW arena GV spawns are piled on top of each other and it would have helped me a couple of times. How is that done? I've heard it has to do with processor speed, internet speed etc but I've never had that issue before and never seen it happen. And the fact that the second my M4 reloaded I pulled the trigger again, then timed it against me turning a T34 turret 180 degrees after a spawn simply didn't add up. Can anyone help? <S> Red people.
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Offline AWwrgwy

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Re: Tank spawn question
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2009, 02:19:01 PM »
As soon as you launch, jump to the gun and start turning the turret.  It takes a couple of second for you to load in their view and for them to load in your view.  This is the time the turret is turning.

I think it is a matter of processor speed.  When you launch you need to load the terrain, position of everybody else and their skins.  It may look like you're all there and ready but your computer may not have rendered everything yet.

I've been on both ends of it, usually the losing end.  I've been killed many a time before I can even see the other guys.  I've been hit and not killed to see the guy who shot me fade into view.  I've also been at camps where others kill the spawn-ins before I can even see them.

I need a new computer.

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Offline Lusche

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Re: Tank spawn question
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2009, 02:23:54 PM »
Uhmm.. it's not about processor speed ;)

A M4 Firefly takes 9 seconds to reload and fire the next shot.
A T34/85 turret takes 5 seconds to rotate 180 degrees. So if he spawns immediately after dying, his barrel can indeed point to you long before you have reloaded.

The fact that you only see him when his turret is already pointing at you is a result of a deliberately programmed delay - the spawner is rendered with that delay for everyobody else already on location. It's one way to make spawncamping a bit mire difficult.
Of course, on top of that there is the usual internet lag thing, too which is the reason another player might see the spawned before you do (but distance to the spawned player does also play a role)
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Offline sethipus

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Re: Tank spawn question
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2009, 02:34:24 PM »
I don't think it has anything to do with your processor speed, or the speed of your internet connection.  It has to do with when the server updates your client with his position.

On your machine, you're sitting behind the spawn hangar, with no enemy in sight.

On his machine, he spawns in.  This required interaction between his machine and the server.  But you don't automatically know that he's spawned in - the server has to tell your game client that this guy has spawned in, what vehicle it is, his current location, speed, heading, etc.  There is some time between when the other guy actually appears in game, on his computer, and when the server ends up telling your game client that he's there, and in the time in between that, he's in a T34 (always use a T34 for this) rotating his turret like mad.  If the delay is long enough, he's already got his turret on you before you even see he's there.

I've been killed by guys in a spawn hangar before when they still weren't visible to me.  A shot just appeared out of thin air and killed me.  In fact, I've had a guy fire on me out of thin air, before my client knew he was there, and in a knee-jerk reaction I fired back, and since my game still didn't think he was there, my shot just passed through his location and did no damage.  He appeared an instant later and fired again, killing me.  Yeah, it's frustrating, but that's the way it goes.

One thing that helps explain a few of these wierd little things is that this game operates under the principle that what you see in the game on your computer will affect you, and what he sees on his end of the game will affect him.  If your game doesn't see his tank in game, your shot won't hit him, even if on his computer, he's really there.  I have heard that they programmed in a little random delay in updating others of a new spawn-in, in order to make it easier to break a camp.  I don't know if this is really true or not, but if it is, just add that little bit of delay to the delay due to lagtime between his actions and when the server notifies you of his actions, and the principle remains as I explained it.

This works in the air too.  Your position, as you see yourself at any given time, isn't actually the same as what the other guy sees on his machine.  There's always a little lag time between when you make a sudden control input, for example ( that reacts instantly on your machine), and when the other guy sees you do that, so it can be rendered on his screen.  Doesn't matter.  If he shoots and hits where his computer thinks your plane is at that instant, you'll get hit, even if on your computer you'd just juked a little and he would have missed you.  When you shoot, your computer will hit his plane based on where your computer thinks he is, not where his computer thinks he is.

This also explains why sometimes you'll get a collision message and the other guy doesn't, or vice versa, when it was a head to head thing that should have collided both.  What's happening is that on his machine, some last-second maneuver caused him to barely miss you.  So since on his machine he missed, he doesn't get a collision.  But since on your machine, you didn't see his last-second maneuver, and you didn't perform one of your own, so your computer saw you hitting him, and you get a collision.  This doesn't really sound "fair", but overall, the scheme works insanely well, and makes it so that even with the lag between your actions and when everyone else finds out about them, and vice versa, everyone sees things as happening smoothly and responsively on their own machines.

There's one exception I can think of to this "what you see is what you get, and what he sees is what he gets" rule.  And that is landing.  If you shoot a guy, and on your screen you clearly see the hit, but at that exact same time on his computer he's just towered out and is safe, then he'll remain safe, and the server will reject your hit.  I've seen this a few times, most notably with a set of B-17s that landed on a field I was camping in a T34.  I fired an HE round that I clearly saw impact the cockpit area of a B-17, which should have given me an instant kill, but at that same instant, the B-17 pilot had just ended flight, so his planes disappeared and I got no kill.  This same thing happen with an M4 whose turret I had knocked out at a vbase I was attacking a couple days ago.  I fired a second round and hit the guy right in the side from 300 yards out, which should have killed him, except on his screen he'd just ended flight, and so his M4 disappeared unkilled.

I hope this helps.  Most of the time this mechanism is invisible to us players, and the illusion of everything being updated instantly is maintained, as if there were no such thing as packet latency and server processing time and whatnot.  Every once in a while something wierd happens, like tank shells coming at you from thin air, and it helps put these in perspective, if you understand the mechanisms and why these things happen.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 02:44:25 PM by sethipus »

Offline T24

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Re: Tank spawn question
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2009, 03:53:23 PM »
Thank you guys so much for clarifying this for me. So many variables to it and you guys gave me a pretty good understanding of how it works. <S> to Khonees because he was the guy in the hangar and I've cursed him repeatedly since then LOL. I've withdrawn my voodoo doll curse and all is forgiven LMAO. <S>
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Offline USCH

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Re: Tank spawn question
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2009, 06:11:32 PM »
Uhmm.. it's not about processor speed ;)

A M4 Firefly takes 9 seconds to reload and fire the next shot.
A T34/85 turret takes 5 seconds to rotate 180 degrees. So if he spawns immediately after dying, his barrel can indeed point to you long before you have reloaded.

The fact that you only see him when his turret is already pointing at you is a result of a deliberately programmed delay - the spawner is rendered with that delay for everyobody else already on location. It's one way to make spawncamping a bit mire difficult.
Of course, on top of that there is the usual internet lag thing, too which is the reason another player might see the spawned before you do (but distance to the spawned player does also play a role)
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Offline moot

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Re: Tank spawn question
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2009, 06:52:13 PM »
Lusche how do you explain that some players appear faster than others, if that lag is supposed to be a game feature?
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Tank spawn question
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2009, 06:58:03 PM »
Lusche how do you explain that some players appear faster than others, if that lag is supposed to be a game feature?

Mostly with other "plain" standard lag, but at this point I start to guess more than to know ;)
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Offline stroker71

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Re: Tank spawn question
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2009, 07:11:08 PM »
Lusche how do you explain that some players appear faster than others, if that lag is supposed to be a game feature?

<---not Lusche but isn't it to do with your ping times/host quell times?  The better ping the faster you see whats going on.  My ping is around 80-100 and yes I have DSL.  I have had guys spawn in and fire twice before I see them...also have guys camping with me kill the upper before I even see him. 

There are so many variables to this and any on line game it's mind blowing.  The more I dredge into it the more I realize I know nothing!
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Offline moot

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Re: Tank spawn question
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2009, 07:14:41 PM »
I was just curious because some players will show near instantly, and then one or two spawns later, slow enough to have near 180 rotation on turret.
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Offline E25280

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Re: Tank spawn question
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2009, 08:20:42 PM »
I think this is what is happening in those cases (used it myself, so I am reasonably certain it works).

As a backdrop, think of what happens when you move from one side of the map to the tower of a field under very heavy attack.  The first instant or several that you are in the tower, you will see *no planes*.  After a second, several appear.  Then several more.  Then finally all of them.

The reason as I understand it is how the game tracks so many players at one time.  Remember that HTC's servers are essentially only data transfer points.  Player1 is in a plane constantly transmitting his position to the "server."  Players who are near the transmission point are "interesting" to Player1, and must be rendered more or less instantly (insofar as it is possible to be "instant" over the internet).  The data-transfer between Player1's computer and those he is fighting with or against is constant.

However, player2 all the way on the other side of the map, is NOT very interesting to Player1's comp.  His position is transferred very infrequently, perhaps at most rendering a dot on radar.  A sector away is slightly more interesting, so the updates are a little faster.  In con range a little more interesting still, etc.  The updates are a little closer together the closer the two players come.

You can see this visually if you have ever chased a distant con.  The con at times appears motionless.  After a moment, the distant con "jumps" to a new position, and a little later will "jump" again, each time looking stationary after it jumps.  Once you close to a certain distance, he stops jumping, and the con's motion becomes smooth.  This is because you are finally close enough that the con is "interesting" enough to have it's positional data transferred more frequently.  Finally, somewhere around icon range, the communication is constant.

OK, long winded I know, but for those of you who haven't dropped dead from boredom, here is how it applies to spawn camping . . .

I up -- I get shot -- I up -- I get shot.  Dang, a camper in my hanger.  I move to a tower at the far end of the map and stay there for several seconds -- long enough for the camper to receive a position on me, and that I am no longer "interesting."

I pop back to tower and instantly up in the hanger, turning my turret.  By the time the computers have recognized we are no longer all the way across the map from one another, I have had plenty of time to turn my turret around, and am simply waiting for him to render so I can shoot him.
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