Radar questions concerning bomber routing.

[flakbait]

Ok, now that I've got your attention with my radar proposal here's a few more things. Ack delay is a good thing, but 20 seconds gives me enough time (personally) to down about 4-6 acks before it lights my fuzzy butt up. This is using an La-5, not a dedicated ack killer with bombs and rockets. So you want an ack delay? Ok, give it about 4 seconds worth. Look at your watch and count off 4 seconds; it's a long time. In 4 seconds at 350 mph you will move a distance of 2048 feet. That's a long ways in 4 seconds. And you want a 20 second delay? You could have a field flattened in that time. Even four seconds is a bit much since the distance traveled is so far. But it's better than the insta-ack we've got now.

Base alerts. Well, if we want HTC to use my radar proposal we're gonna have to figure this thing out. We could do an alert in the text buffer, flash the base icon on the map, or even pop a window up right in your face. But since that would cause an excessive amount of crashes, it's not a good idea. A text alert is pretty pointless, simply because most people don't use RW. Plus that text alert would just fly past in the radio buffer. If you loaded the buffer with alerts you'd lose a LOT of comm traffic. So that's out. So how about this: the base icon flashes red and green for about 10 seconds, then quits for 10 seconds. It does this four times before going quiet for a minute, then it starts up again. At the same time everyone hears a sound file playing "Our field is being attacked!". This gives you both an audio and visual warning. We could also have the clipboard automatically pop up when a base is attacked. This would warn people who don't have their sound on, and could be an option.

For strat targets and warning, an air raid siren works perfectly. Again we could have a flashing red and green dot on the map showing which factory the enemy is attacking. Or we could simply flash the nearest base icon, not giving an exact position of the attack. This would make people LOOK for the enemy and not STARE at the map. Since the warning sounds are different you'd know the difference between a simple base raid and an assault on your strategic resources. This effectively solves the warning problem while giving a somewhat realistic radar system.

This will work, all we need now is HT's take on it.


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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"For yay did the sky darken, and split open and spew forth fire, and
through the smoke rode the Four Wurgers of the Apocalypse.
And on their canopies was tattooed the number of the Beast, and the
number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb
 

[Tac]

Just model some ground soldiers to run from the barracks and tower towards the AA.. if you shoot them otw the ack doesnt get manned for 10 seconds  

Now hows THAT for some vulching! Heeeheee

[Jekyll]

Yep Flakbait, 2048 feet.  The acks currently open up at around 8000 feet range, so under your 4 second proposal the acks would now open up whilst the attackers were some 6000 feet (2000 yards) from the field.

It would take roughly 12 seconds from the time you came into ack range until you were directly over the field, leaving you 8 seconds to de-ack the entire field in safety.

And flak, if you can currently de-ack an entire field in 20 seconds without EVER climbing above 500 feet..... then I'd sure love to see a film of it  

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When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11

[Pongo]

For a con at 10k show the radar dot at 2 sectors, at 15k show for 3 sectors at 20k 4 sectors and at 25k and up show it for 5 sectors. Radar range is greatly increased by altitude. So alt dweebs show up at historically long ranges.
I think its a shame that you are mixing your great radar change scheme in with a delay in ack. The delay will not happen in my mind but with thought the dar change might.

[TheWobble]

I I agree, the acks needs tweaking but lets fight 1 battle at a time here, lets get this radar stuff noticed and addressed before we tack on any other "gripes", we dont want the addition of other "problems" to obscure the orignal situation.

[Pepino]

One of the funniest missions I flew ever was a NOE B-25 Mitchells' against some country (can't remember if frogs or barneys) back in WB. We flatten the city (or whatever the target was, It was long ago) at the cost of half of the B-25's involved.

The level of immersion was impressive. The flight to the target, tense. Keeping the altitude below radar level is a challenging task under ground circumstances. Some 4-5 planes popped into the ground.

Nothing of this can be done with the current counter bar situation.

I like Flakbait's & Wobble idea. Please, Htc. allow NOE missions. Give the TG the chance to be a REAL threat.

Cheers,

Pepe

[flakbait]

Ack delay is something for the future, not right now. So yeah Wobble you're right we should attack one problem at a time. Keeps things simple. The warning system seems fine by me, so does the radar range and altitude limits. I wouldn't want to catch a 20k contact at 5 grids distance, since that would let you figure his altitude and range. But we could tweak the system a bit to allow for something like that Pongo. Just not at 5 grids distance; you could see a long ways into enemy territory. Heres a simple example using a field's radar:

0-500 ft AGL: No radar contacts
500-2,500: darbar lights up
2,500+: dot dar comes on

Range: dot dar
0-500 ft AGL: nothing
500-2,500: 12.5 miles (1/2 grid)
2,500-7K: 25 miles (1 grid)
7k-15k: 37.5 miles (1 1/2 grids)
15k+: 50 miles (2 grids)

Range: dar bar
0-500 ft AGL: nothing
500-2,500: 25 miles (1 grid)
2,500-7k: 37.5 miles (1 1/2 grids)
7k-15k: 50 miles (2 grids)
15k+: 50 miles (2 grids)

Think it could work? We'd have to extend the radar range from my previous example, efectively doubling it for strat targets. The down side is you'd have even more dot dar showing contacts. Now we could chop the above ranges in half to get a somewhat shorter warning time. Personally I would cut those ranges by half, if anything to limit the dot dar to directly around a country's assets.

Jekyll, you forgot something. Guns have a range of 800 yards at 350 mph and I don't know about you, but I open up on acks when they get in guns range. Not when I'm directly over the field. That way I can kill more of 'em and get out of range; I don't like holes in my plane since they tend to damage things I need. Like gas tanks and guns. As for de-acking a field solo in 20 seconds, I've never done it. I have seen guys in the MA who come in using a Kette of three and wipe acks off the map that fast. The highest number of acks I've killed in 20 seconds is 4-6 depending on how I set my run up.

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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think God wants to hear from me right now.
I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was Chiggy von
Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
   

[This message has been edited by flakbait (edited 02-26-2001).]

[Maverick]

 

Originally posted by funked:
The sector bars simulate jack squat.  They are a gameplay concession for people too impatient to find the enemy.

   
Yeah such a weak theory, that the US designed several aircraft to do just that during the Cold War.  Such a weak theory, that the Allies ran thousands of sorties like this from England into occupied Europe.

Stealth was a real factor in a lot of WW2 air combat.  In the MA it is not a factor at all.  In fact it has been outlawed by the designers.  I know for a fact this has cost HTC more than one customer.  And that's sad.      

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 02-24-2001).]

Funked
Last time I checked, cold war and gulf war planes were not in this game.

Allies did run thousands of sorties into the continent. Many of them were intercepted. That is why the allies lost so many bombers to AA and fighters. Deception plans designed to "foil" the enemies determination of the raid target was a normal tactic. Seems it wasn't all that successful all the time.

I still stand by the premise that it is highly "unrealistic" to figure that you should be able to fly over enemy terrain, bomb / strafe an enemy installation and do so unobserved and unapposed. If that is what you want, then you need to limit yourself to the drones off line.

I figured the reason for a multiplayer online game based on WW2 combat was to foster the players getting the combat they pay their $30.00 a month for. I think the fact that most players are actually playing in the MA or scenarios with other players on the enemy side validates this premise. If not, then there would be many more in the TA just bombing / strafing the red fields with no players defending them.

There is my position on it. Feel free to start up with the usual character assassination / flame fest.

Mav

[Pongo]

I like flack baits revision.
I think anti dar load outs would be great too. window and such.

[TheWobble]

As everyone knows, no matter ehat is dont there will always be someone squeaking.  But i think less people would squeak about flakbaits's (and mine) idea than would squeak about it.  besides at least our way would be realistic!

[Pei]

I agree with Flak and Wobble on this one. In fact I'd personaly think it would be good to see the dot dar done away with altogether and replaced with system of text warnings simulating radio reports from controllers (not that this will ever happen, considering how many people log off when the dar goes down). Dot dar should only be for those aircraft equiped with radar (i.e. night fighters, and then only imperfectly and within the radar cone). General reports could be issued for large numbers of bandits or facilies under attack and there could be a way to request a local report (anybody remember talking to the Dentist in MiG Alley? - something like that with voice recording would be really sweet).
The bar dar would remain as a general indicator.
OK this is all pie and the sky as there are other more important areas to work on, and cause less controversy, but I can wish  .

[Jekyll]

 

I still stand by the premise that it is highly "unrealistic" to figure that you should be able to fly over enemy terrain, bomb / strafe an enemy installation and do so unobserved and unapposed.

Umm Maverick.  Ever heard of 'rhubarbs'?  Ever heard of the 'Doolittle Raid'?  Or how about the ultra-low level Dornier sorties against British airfields during the Battle of Britain?  Or the 'DamBuster' mission?  Or the Mosquito raid on Gestapo Headquarters, or the sinking of the Tirpitz etc etc etc.

Unrealistic, huh?

------------------
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11

[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 02-27-2001).]

[whels1]

Originally posted by funked:
The sector bars simulate jack squat.  They are a gameplay concession for people too impatient to find the enemy.
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actually Dar in AH is less effective then WW2 Dar. i think Germany had dar along the coast that could see Allied bombers forming up over england before raids.

WW2 dar gave Direction of travel, altitude, and baring. Dar in ww2 was better then most know or like to think.

Sector bars simulate, coast watchers, fishing boats, farmers, resistance fighters.

i dont think, MA Dar should show counters beyond 1 sector of bases adjacent to enemy bases. if i take off on my mainland no enemy should see my sector bar untill i get to within 1 to 2 sectors of the front lines.


whels

[TheWobble]

 

actually Dar in AH is less effective then WW2 Dar. i think Germany had dar along the coast that could see Allied bombers forming up over england before raids.

WW2 dar gave Direction of travel, altitude, and baring. Dar in ww2 was better then most know or like to think.

Sector bars simulate, coast watchers, fishing boats, farmers, resistance fighters.

i dont think, MA Dar should show counters beyond 1 sector of bases adjacent to enemy bases. if i take off on my mainland no enemy should see my sector bar untill i get to within 1 to 2 sectors of the front lines.

its not the dar-bars that bother us so much, its the fact that no matter low you fly you will ALWAYS show up on radar, even if you fly at 50 feet off the water you will still show up, THATS the problem because:

A: its totally un-realistic
B: it removes any possability of sneak raids that were a major part of ww2.

not being able to go below radar totally removes some very fun options from the game.




[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 02-27-2001).]

[Tac]

NOE craft shouldnt show on bar dar or dot dar period.

Simulate farmers or the like? Hell, then Model THEM into the game so I can shoot the sumsqueakes and pave a way for my force to sneak through.