Author Topic: Russian fighter performance (p vs p)  (Read 841 times)

Offline juzz

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Russian fighter performance (p vs p)
« on: June 25, 2000, 05:04:00 PM »
A question: Exactly what was the difference between a Russian prototype aircraft, and a production model?

Were the prototypes fully equipped and finished to the same level as a frontline fighter? Why did they perform so differently? Is there any evidence that a well maintained frontline fighter could match the prototype performance level?

Offline leonid

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Russian fighter performance (p vs p)
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2000, 07:30:00 PM »
Sorry, juzz, but we've gone over this one so many times on this Board that it's starting to get a little, well ... I'll explain this whole thing.

First of all, all countries base their  production performances off the final version of a series of special 'prototypes'.  They're a progression of prototypes that advance through stages until the designers/gov't. contractors are satisfied - or not.  That final prototype is set to the same weight and configurations as the envisioned production model.  Thus, theoretically, there really shouldn't be much of a performance difference between the final prototype and subsequent production models.

In practice, this is not the case, for a number of reasons.  The most obvious are differences in assembly methods: a single prototype is tended to by the top engineers and technicians of the company with comprehensive testing over that single aircraft, while production models are cranked out at assembly plants, and shipped off to their units after passing minimum requirements.  So, as it turns out prototype data is generally superior to production data.

The problem is that the Soviets kept records of their production data for quality assurance reasons (moving their industry to the Urals created many problems in quality control), something not generally done.  This data is usually stated along with the prototype data nowadays, creating the impression that only the Soviets had such discrepencies.  This is not the case, as all countries had similar differences between the two, it's just that the Soviets have it published while the most other nations do not.
ingame: Raz

Offline Vermillion

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Russian fighter performance (p vs p)
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2000, 07:52:00 AM »
And the issue as it applies to the game is that Pyro has chosen to use the "production" test data numbers for the La5fn and the Yak-9U, rather than the "prototype" data which is what every other countries aircraft in the game is modeled on.

Just to give an example the Yak-9U by using the "production" data losses 17 mph in max speed at 18,000 ft, 15 mph at sea level, and adds almost an entire minute (4.1 mins to 5.0 mins) in climb to 4,000m (16,000 ft).

Quite a significant handicaping   And the La5fn suffers the same fate.

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Offline fd ski

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Russian fighter performance (p vs p)
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2000, 08:43:00 AM »
Verm, i remember seeing 3 minutes 20 something seconds numbers to 16000ft for Yak 9 U somewhere. Could you please shead some light ?

Yak in AH Chart doesn't look good.


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Offline Vermillion

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« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2000, 09:47:00 AM »
FdSki, just checked thru my "Soviet Combat Aircraft of the Second World War", by Gordon and Khazanov.

The closest I can find to your number is two Yak-3 types.

The Yak-3 with the VK107 (same engine as the Yak-9U), had a 3.9 min to 4,000m time. However most of the Yak-3 production had the older VK105 series engine.

The Yak-3 prototype with the VK108 engine, tested out at 3.5 minutes to 4,000m. But I believe only a single prototype was made due to problems with the engine.

Actually the Yak-9U in Aces High is not as bad as it might seem. It is fairly fast, being slightly slower than the P-51 below 25k, and it accelerates well. It also performs well in the vertical.

However it should be the fastest plane at low to medium altitudes, except for the Typhoon and the 109G10 (both of which have horrible trim problems).

Basically it is competitive if you can shoot well, but its definitely not a contender for the "best plane" title (most agree that the P51 and G10 currently share this title) that it should be.

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Offline Pyro

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Russian fighter performance (p vs p)
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2000, 10:18:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Vermillion:
And the issue as it applies to the game is that Pyro has chosen to use the "production" test data numbers for the La5fn and the Yak-9U, rather than the "prototype" data which is what every other countries aircraft in the game is modeled on.


Where did you come up with this?




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Offline Vermillion

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« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2000, 11:25:00 AM »
Well, its quite obvious you are using the VVS "production" data just by looking at your charts or by flying the aircraft.

No other country in the world (or at least that I have ever seen, If I am wrong please enlighten me) kept "production data".

And your flight charts for aircraft such as the American planes match the data exactly  produced from prototype flight tests conducted by the manufacturer (for instance North American tests for the P-51) or the receiving air force acceptance tests, with a group of special company engineers and mechanics fine tuning the aircraft.  Not exactly what I would call a "production" aircraft.



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Offline juzz

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Russian fighter performance (p vs p)
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2000, 02:59:00 AM »
I got these numbers from this page on the Russian Aviation website. For the La-5FN it lists two sets of figures, "Fighter Prototype" and "Series Fighter".

La-5FN(Figures in brackets for "Fighter Prototype", when different).

Engine: ASh-82FN - 1850hp@T/O, 1630hp@1550m, 1500hp@4500m
Wing area: 17.5m^2
Wingspan: 9.8m
Empty weight: 2828kg(2706kg)
Loaded weight: 3290kg(3168kg)
Wingloading: 188kg/m^2(181kg/m^2)
Powerloading: 2.25kg/hp(2.17kg/hp)
Speed at S/L: 583km/h(593km/h)
Speed at 6250m: 634km/h(648km/h)
Speed at landing: 138km/h(137km/h)
Turn time: 18.5s
Ceiling: 10750m(11200m)
Climb to 5000m: 5.2min(4.7min)

The La-5FN in Aces High seems to be even slower than the "Series Fighter" figures above.

-towd_

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Russian fighter performance (p vs p)
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2000, 10:59:00 PM »
ball back in your court pyro

funked

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Russian fighter performance (p vs p)
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2000, 11:04:00 PM »
Whaaaaaaatever.  P-51D performance in this game is conservative if anything.

Offline juzz

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Russian fighter performance (p vs p)
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2000, 11:59:00 PM »
The Spitfire Mk V is probably a bit optimistic. But if you made it any worse the Me 109F-4 would be way above it.  

Offline Vermillion

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« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2000, 10:39:00 AM »
Funked, a "whatever" from you???

So it would be ok with you if we removed 15 mph at SL, 17 mph at altitude, and reduced the climbrate from your Typhoon by 20% ?

Wouldn't quite be a Typhoon anymore would it.

To be honest, its not the Yak-9U vs. P51 matchup that bothers me.

Its the Yak-9U vs the 109G10 (and the future Dora), potential scenario matchup.

And its not just the Yak, the La-5fn is modeled the same way (ie a precedent). This together means that every Russian aircraft in the game from now on, will be similarly hindered.

And that will totally screw up any potential balance for Eastern Front Scenarios.

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funked

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Russian fighter performance (p vs p)
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2000, 12:08:00 PM »
Vermillion I am not sure that all the non-Soviet planes' FMs are based on prototypes or manufacturer's data, that is all.

"And that will totally screw up any potential balance for Eastern Front Scenarios."

I don't see that at all.  Some of the Axis planes are (I think) based on Allied data.  And guess what: Allied data on captured Axis aircraft - not prototypes but well-worn combat veterans - matches pretty well with data from the Axis countries, and sometimes even exceed's the manufacturer's figures.

Furthermore I'm not sure every country had such a large difference in performance between prototypes and production aircraft.  The Soviets were dealing with new factories, thousands of miles apart from other factories building the same aircraft.  Some factories switching from building other designers' aircraft or even non-aircraft items.

The Yak-9U figures you quote were measured nearly a year apart, and compare a combat-ready Yak-9U with the first Yak-9 that had a VK-107 crammed into it.  Surely there were many design changes to the aircraft during that interval.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 07-04-2000).]

Offline -duma-

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Russian fighter performance (p vs p)
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2000, 12:10:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Vermillion:
Funked, a "whatever" from you???

So it would be ok with you if we removed 15 mph at SL, 17 mph at altitude, and reduced the climbrate from your Typhoon by 20% ?


You're offering to model the drop tanks!

I love you man!