Scissors Help

[maddafinga]

Ok, here is something that I've had happen to me a couple of times, though not usually this quicly or severely. This is a great example of it.   I would love any help that anyone could give me on what I should have done differently here and/or how to follow this move and use it myself now and then. 

I started out nicely on this guy's 6  after a pass or so and some other stuff going on.  The e states were pretty much even to the best of my recollection and this was the situation that developed.  I felt really good about it and then just had to watch it slip out of my grasp.  Every revolution I could see him rotating more out of plane until just before the end I could even see him just sort of swivel around on me and come down right on my 6.  I simply couldn't follow his moves in the scissors there.

I was using TrackIR when I filmed this so my plane's view is straight ahead the whole time.  I was looking around, I promise, just the film doesn't record it. 

Any help would be fantastic. 

http://www.mediafire.com/file/ivnxyafojyi/f4u1a_k4 _losing scissors.ahf

[StokesAk]

What i have found to be useful is that when you get in the scissors lower your throttle and they will eventually overshot and start darting back and forth right infront of your gunsights then all you need is some trigger finger,flaps when low and slow in scissors are very helpful.

[stran]

looks like he was making larger loops, and you were making smaller loops which caused you to overshoot. i'm not real familiar with the 109 characteristics but i think you were out classed in sustained turning and should have used acceleration and climb to get away from him and get a better advantage.

edit: if you look at your video in Fixed view you can tell you weren't using enough elevator in that maneuver.

[maddafinga]

Guess I should have clarified a little better, this was a rolling scissors, not a flat.  I haven't really had any problems with the flat variety.  I do the same thing in flat scissors, cut throttle and drop flaps.  Off the top of my head I don't remember if I used flaps or not in that film.  

Thanks!

[maddafinga]

looks like he was making larger loops, and you were making smaller loops which caused you to overshoot. i'm not real familiar with the 109 characteristics but i think you were out classed in sustained turning and should have used acceleration and climb to get away from him and get a better advantage.

Like just kept climbing at the top of a roll then rather than going back down with him?  K4 can really outclimb a corsair (not sure about the -4 model)  with no real problem. 

My main issue here is right near the end where he just seems to swivel on me and I'm not able to follow.  I'll have to work on the making wider rolls though.  When I get into these with good sticks I always seem to lose them after a few revolutions, I definitely know I need to do something different. 

[stran]

Guess I should have clarified a little better, this was a rolling scissors, not a flat.  I haven't really had any problems with the flat variety.  I do the same thing in flat scissors, cut throttle and drop flaps.  Off the top of my head I don't remember if I used flaps or not in that film.  

Thanks!

i don't think you want to cut throttle in the rolling scissors, you're just inviting a stall. you want to use flaps and maybe wep to maintain the maneuver.

Like just kept climbing at the top of a roll then rather than going back down with him?  K4 can really outclimb a corsair (not sure about the -4 model)  with no real problem. 

My main issue here is right near the end where he just seems to swivel on me and I'm not able to follow.  I'll have to work on the making wider rolls though.  When I get into these with good sticks I always seem to lose them after a few revolutions, I definitely know I need to do something different. 

you're not climbing, you're trying to make less forward travel than your opponent.
109 does climb better than even the  perked f4u-4.
like i said in my edit last post, review your video in fixed view and you can see how big of a loop that f4u made.

edit: no not climb at the top of your roll, go to the bottom of the roll. you followed him to the top and just stayed there.

[Anaxogoras]

Films do show flaps, don't they?  I never saw yours come out, and that's bad for this kind of fight.  I also didn't see any throttle modulation on your part.  It was either military power or WEP the whole way.  The 109 is considered an expert's plane for a reason: you need to be on top of your flaps, throttle, and rudder at all times.  Doing less than that isn't going to cut it against an opponent who merely has to drop a couple of notches of flaps to transform into a prop-driven Harrier.

At around 20 seconds, you start to descend from the initial "up" part of your rolling scissors.  This is where you need to drop flaps and ease off the throttle.  In fact, in anticipation of his next move (which is to drop in behind you), you need to be going as slowly as possible.  The 109K-4 is a fast aircraft, and it is easy to go too fast with it, which seems to be what happened to you.

-----------

i'm not real familiar with the 109 characteristics

Then maybe.... oh never mind.

[StokesAk]

If it is rolling scissors you want to snap at the top and come down at them at a very extreme angle. if you over shoot just keep doing it and start cutting your throttle at the point where you have just came down out of the stall at the top.

[Agent360]

I watched the film.

Classic case of rolling scissors.

Obviously you were out scissored. But why?

The f4u was using the verticle snap roll very well. He had flaps out and speed. He was able to go strait up (almost) into the sun, snap over and come back in.

You were only barrell rolling. The f4u gets the advantage after the second roll. But that is where you really mess up. At the end you hardly made any verticle move....just a simple barrel roll....but you were too fast by this time anyway.

Flaps will not come out on the 109 until under 200mph. Once you get them out they will auto retract over 200. You can listen to the sound and tell when you go over 200.

Throttle is extremly important. Right off you should have been off the throttle and slowing to drop flaps. If you get your nose pointed down with throttle on you just wont be able to pull up in time and will give the con time to reverse over the top and stay behind you.

If you are gong 200 ish in a 109 and you point your nose down you will be at 250+ in 1 or 2 seconds....way to fast to use flaps. You turn arc at the bottom will be huge compared to the top plane stalling with flaps. Seperation will be such that the top plane can simply glide down into your turn arc.

You must CUT your throttle at the bottom while going UP...sound wierd but thats waht you have to do. Drop the flaps in verticles and snap roll over to the down part. Nose down and pull up BEFORE you overspeed to 200+. That is the way you do it. BUT you must make sure you dont get roped by a diving flat turn that goes verticle. If that happens you will have to seperate and merge again.

See these films.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,261486.0.html

[Qrsu]

One more thing... you might want to point your nose behind his tail and follow him in lag pursuit. It might not set you up with a shot, but you probably won't overshoot him that quickly in the rolling scissors. I'd pull lag to stay behind him, do everything aforementioned above, and pull lead at the proper moments to go for the shot, if you blow it, back off into lag again. The whole point of knife fights is to keep the opponent in front of your 3-9 line. You want him to traverse forward in his flight path more than you will. This goes for flat scissors, rolling scissors etc...

Great topic of discussion btw.

[sunfan1121]

A easy way to win almost 90% of your rolling scissor fights is to keep your nose up longer than he's keeping his up, also when his nose is down you want to keep your nose up as long as you can.

[maddafinga]

 At the end you hardly made any verticle move....just a simple barrel roll....but you were too fast by this time anyway.

I was pretty stunned there and just sort of gave up really.  When it looked like he just sort of rotated and dropped in behind me I kind of mentally conceded. 

Throttle is extremly important. Right off you should have been off the throttle and slowing to drop flaps. If you get your nose pointed down with throttle on you just wont be able to pull up in time and will give the con time to reverse over the top and stay behind you.

If you are gong 200 ish in a 109 and you point your nose down you will be at 250+ in 1 or 2 seconds....way to fast to use flaps. You turn arc at the bottom will be huge compared to the top plane stalling with flaps. Seperation will be such that the top plane can simply glide down into your turn arc.

You must CUT your throttle at the bottom while going UP...sound wierd but thats waht you have to do. Drop the flaps in verticles and snap roll over to the down part. Nose down and pull up BEFORE you overspeed to 200+. That is the way you do it. BUT you must make sure you dont get roped by a diving flat turn that goes verticle. If that happens you will have to seperate and merge again

Hmm, lots to think about there.  Thanks, great input and exactly why I posted this looking for help. 

I think this kind of illustrates my problem pretty well actually.  I get kills in rolling scissors all the time, but I seem to lose to guys who are good.  I begin to see what I haven't been doing there. 


Also, great films, thanks.  They bear further study. 

[maddafinga]

i don't think you want to cut throttle in the rolling scissors, you're just inviting a stall. you want to use flaps and maybe wep to maintain the maneuver.

you're not climbing, you're trying to make less forward travel than your opponent.
109 does climb better than even the  perked f4u-4.
like i said in my edit last post, review your video in fixed view and you can see how big of a loop that f4u made.

edit: no not climb at the top of your roll, go to the bottom of the roll. you followed him to the top and just stayed there.

Ok, I gotcha I think. 

Thanks!

[maddafinga]

Films do show flaps, don't they?  I never saw yours come out, and that's bad for this kind of fight.  I also didn't see any throttle modulation on your part.  It was either military power or WEP the whole way.  The 109 is considered an expert's plane for a reason: you need to be on top of your flaps, throttle, and rudder at all times.  Doing less than that isn't going to cut it against an opponent who merely has to drop a couple of notches of flaps to transform into a prop-driven Harrier.

At around 20 seconds, you start to descend from the initial "up" part of your rolling scissors.  This is where you need to drop flaps and ease off the throttle.  In fact, in anticipation of his next move (which is to drop in behind you), you need to be going as slowly as possible.  The 109K-4 is a fast aircraft, and it is easy to go too fast with it, which seems to be what happened to you.

Yeah, I don't think I did put flaps out, something I'll have to remember from now on.  What gets me there is that it's not a situation where I feel the need for them, so I don't think about dropping any.  I'll just need to force an adjustment to my thinking there. 

I had actually worked throttle earlier in the fight, to get to the point where the film starts.  That is a feel thing too, also one that I need to redress.  I guess I got so obsessed with getting a shot, once I got behind him and that close, that I just let the actual flying of the plane go. 

I need some mental work here more than anything it seems. 

Lessee, more lag persuit, less speed and more flaps, snap roll at the top rather than just flowing around, don't get fixated and forget to work the aircraft. 

Have I left anything out?

Edited to add, Thanks for all the help guys, I really do appreciate it.

[Anaxogoras]

Yeah, I don't think I did put flaps out, something I'll have to remember from now on.  What gets me there is that it's not a situation where I feel the need for them, so I don't think about dropping any.  I'll just need to force an adjustment to my thinking there. 

No need to force an adjustment.  Once you see a few moves ahead you'll definitely feel the need for them, because it will be apparent to you that the pesky F4U is about to force you to overshoot.

I'm glad we could help.  Agent's films are great.  I love how they all start "we're trying to get this guy on our 6."