Author Topic: Lack of Dive Brakes on Me262 should be modelled.  (Read 1308 times)

Offline Buzzbait

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Lack of Dive Brakes on Me262 should be modelled.
« on: August 12, 2001, 11:41:00 PM »
S!

The Me262 was noted for its high speed, but it had several serious disadvantages:

1)  It accelerated and decelerated very slowly.  This meant that it required a longer runway to take off and to land.  More importantly, because it was not equipped with dive brakes, and decellerated so slowly, this meant the aircraft required a very long straight approach during which it could bleed speed.  Approaches in a 262 were typically 4 times the distance required for a conventional piston engined fighter.  A conventional fighter would be able to land within the protective radius of the Anti Aircraft defences.  The 262 needed to start its approach far outside the range of friendly weapons.

US and British fighters took advantage of this flaw in the 262's design by putting patrols over the approach lanes of known 262 fields.  The Germans countered by forming special protection staffels, made up primarily of FW190D's, and which were painted with red and white striped lines on their underside, so the German AA could differentiate them more easily from the Allied fighters.

Most of the 262's killed by Allied Fighters were downed either taking off or landing.  The most famous German Ace practioner of the Me262, Walter Nowotny, was shot down by P-51's as he made his approach for landing.

The 2nd generation of Jet fighters all incorporated dive brakes.

Additionally, the Jumo turbines which powered the 262 were notorious for 'flaming out', that is, when too much throttle was applied at once, the air/fuel mixture in the turbine ignited and caused an engine fire.  The throttles on the 262 had to be VERY gradually moved up to their stops or this would happen.  During takeoff, the procedure to bring the engines up to speed was a slow one.
This problem was also notable at higher altitudes, where the lack of oxygen density could cause an overly rich mixture and the same thing to happen.

I hope the AH Me262 incorporates these characteristics in its Jet.

Offline Staga

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Lack of Dive Brakes on Me262 should be modelled.
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2001, 12:30:00 AM »
Kinda like malfunctions in some cannontypes in higher alts ?

Offline Hristo

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Lack of Dive Brakes on Me262 should be modelled.
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2001, 12:58:00 AM »
Me 262 is THE PLANE. Cheap shots like these can't hurt it.

Offline Animal

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Lack of Dive Brakes on Me262 should be modelled.
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2001, 01:24:00 AM »
The plane aint out yet and people are already demanding things made to it.


The Me262 is a superb plane. I know HTC KNOWS what they are doing and thought of anything you can come up with long before you were looking for subjects to whine about in this BBS (not this thread specifically)

Offline SOB

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Lack of Dive Brakes on Me262 should be modelled.
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2001, 01:46:00 AM »
Heh, I'm beginning to get the impression that Hristo has a crusty picture of the ME262 pasted to the ceiling above his bed!   :D


SOB
Three Times One Minus One.  Dayum!

Offline Buzzbait

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Lack of Dive Brakes on Me262 should be modelled.
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2001, 02:12:00 AM »
S! Animal

You better do some reading.

The Me262 was a ground breaking aircraft, but as the first of its genre, it had two main problems.

1:  Poor metallurgy in the Engine construction meant they were prone to failure and to flameouts.  This also was part of the reason for the slow acceleration, the engines couldn't be stressed as much as they might have been given better construction materials.

2:  Lack of dive brakes, (absolutely essential on a jet aircraft)

3:  Wing design, although innovative with the swept wing format, was still prone to putting the aircraft into compression.  Essentially the speeds which it was capable of were not sustainable by the wing design.

If you don't believe me...

THEN DO SOME RESEARCH.

Offline Staga

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Lack of Dive Brakes on Me262 should be modelled.
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2001, 02:13:00 AM »
Hmm he is right in couple things:
Me-262 didn't have divebrakes so I don't think HTC will model them.
Also it accelerated/de-accelerated slowly.

Guess we had to fly it just like Arado which is just fine  :)

Offline Staga

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Lack of Dive Brakes on Me262 should be modelled.
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2001, 02:23:00 AM »
Buzzbait read this: http://www.pauke-pauke.de/mach1/

 ;)  :D

Offline Staga

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Lack of Dive Brakes on Me262 should be modelled.
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2001, 02:32:00 AM »
Here are best parts:
HQ Air Material Command, Wright Field, Dayton, Ohio.

Me-262:
Max speed 20-30degree dive 590mph
Max levelspeed 515mph
Cruising speed 465mph
Stall speed, full fuel, gear and flaps down 125mph.

Offline juzz

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Lack of Dive Brakes on Me262 should be modelled.
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2001, 03:18:00 AM »
Btw: Me 262 wings were only swept for CoG issues, kinda like the Il-2.

Offline minus

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Lack of Dive Brakes on Me262 should be modelled.
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2001, 03:29:00 AM »
tempest  shot down nowotny when landing no pony

Offline Animal

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Lack of Dive Brakes on Me262 should be modelled.
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2001, 05:31:00 AM »
Yes, I am aware of all Me262 waknesses.

My point, is that HTC has taken ALL of them into consideration.

The throttle thing for example, I am sure it will be taken care the same way as the Arado: you can push the throttle all the way, but the RPM will raise slowly (instead of the engine having a flameout). Dont expect to have engine flameouts and such other malfunctions; after all, this is an air combat sim, not an engine managment one (as much as I'd want those features)
I predict you are gonna have a hard time wrecking that engine by yourself, when we dont even have other engine managment functions.

The slow acceleration and deceleration, these are obvious things that dont need mention, specially for a company like HTC who do VERY good research before adding a plane. I am sure acceleration and deceleration will be well modeled. For a good preview, try the arado for acceleration, or try to do a landing run on a P-38L; a very hard plane to slow down for landing. I expect the Me262 to behave this way too.

As for dive flaps, if HTC decided to simulate a Me262 without them, you will simply have to deal with it and plan your attack strategies.

Its not like dive flaps are THAT effective, they help a little, but you can get out of compression just fine by trimming your airplane.


In short; wait for 1.08. Trust HTC and their research. Then you can come and tell them what you think they did wrong.

Offline Buzzbait

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Lack of Dive Brakes on Me262 should be modelled.
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2001, 11:25:00 AM »
S! Staga

Your figures are correct.

And look at the top allowable speed, 590mph.  Only 50mph faster than the fastest level speed of 540mph.  In a dive the 262 picks up speed faster than any conventional aircraft, so it is possible to exceed the top speed figure very easily.  And then the plane is immediately into compressibility.

Conventional piston engined aircraft have a much larger allowance between their top level speed and max. dive speed.  (Exception of course, being the 109's and P-38's)

The swept wing design of the 262 was not engineered to compensate for compression problems, but it DID act to reduce the effects.  As did the fact the wing was quite thin for an aircraft of the time.

Offline Buzzbait

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Lack of Dive Brakes on Me262 should be modelled.
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2001, 11:26:00 AM »
S!

Oops my math out.  590mph is 40mph faster than 540mph.    :rolleyes:

Offline Buzzbait

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Lack of Dive Brakes on Me262 should be modelled.
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2001, 01:54:00 PM »
S! Minus

My information says two P-51 pilots shot Nowotny down.   The pilot`s names were Ernest "Feeb" Fiebelkorn of the 20th FG, and Edward Haydon of the 357th.  I don`t have a book with me now which has all the details, but here is a link to a site which has some info on Fiebelkorn:
 http://www.tmg.obywatel.pl/fiebelkorn_ernest.htm

Fiebelkorn ended up with 8 kills plus some shared, (including Nowotny) and destroyed on the ground.  He was killed in Korea flying an F-82 Mustang.