For CAP1- High cons

[mtnman]

I'm posting this here to avoid hijacking that other thread, but to point out how to take away a higher opponents alt/speed advantage.

Cap asked- a question on this?

when i was still flying the zeek, i had helbent(i think) and another both in p38's caught me lower than they were. they tried bnz'ing me, and i managed to evade their passes....but on each evasion, i also managed to grab alt. after about the 4th or 5th pass, i was co-alt. at this point they left. i tried chasing them, as i was pretty much expecting to see a par of 38's come back with a major speed advantage, but they didn't. i'm NOT critisizing them for leaving, or for their fighting styles. i have pretty much respect for helbent in that 38. what i AM wondering about, is that if the 38 can outzoom the zeek(i know it can), then how did i managed to get to a co-alt position ? i dont thinki had film running for that fight, although i wish i did.
 would it be only because they gave me too much breathing room between passes? i have noticed that the zeek in some instances will hold a decent roc for a few seconds, albiet at a very low airspeed.

I didn't see the actual fight, so I'm guessing how it went, but if you're the lower/slower plane, you can often take away your opponents alt/speed advantage.

If they zoom and don't maintain a position over your head (vertical seperation, without much horizontal seperation), they'll lose E each time they have to dive back "over" to you.  You may have done it accidentally, but as the lower, slower guy, maximizing horizontal seperation works to your benefit.  As the lower plane you need to do a few things.  You need to avoid getting too slow, avoid diving away (and giving up whatever alt you do have), avoid hard breaks that will kill your E (and SA).  You also need to try to maximize horizontal seperation, and minimize vertical seperation.  In other words, when your opponent zooms up after a pass, you need to avoid getting/staying under him, and get off to the side (any side, but preferably the side opposite of his general path- if he's zooming up and north, you'd like to head south).  You need to make these course corrections gently, to conserve E.  What you're trying to do is force your opponent to dive after you, but on a longer, less-steep angle.  Essentially, you're trying to show him your tail and extend away, forcing him to chase you down.  He'll waste E doing this, and when/if he zooms again, it won't be as high...

Knowing that he'll catch you (and since he's you're next kill, you're not really trying to get away...), be prepared to turn back towards him.  Maybe not right back at him for a merge, but time it so that when he catches you he's coming from your side, not directly at your rear.  Don't wait until he catches you to turn.  Do it earlier, so it can be done without the hard, E-burning break.  This allows you to hold speed, but still have him close on you fast enough to make a difficult/impossible shot, and ensure the overshoot.  Now, extend away again, and repeat.  A few times of that, and he'll likely be behind you, co-alt (or nearly so) and roughly equal speed.  Now all you need is a nice reversal...

At the start of this film, I'm being tempted to follow a rope.  My opponent has roughly 3000ft alt advantage over me.  Knowing the folly of being roped, I turn away and begin to take away his alt advantage.  As you mentioned in your post CAP1, giving your lower opponent time to think/breathe isn't a great idea either.  Good BnZ is a balance of applying enough pressure without applying so much that you lose/give away your advantage.  If you watch, you'll see that I'm able to finish a discussion on 200, rotate fuel tanks, stay out from under my opponent, and actually gain altitude- simply because not enough pressure was being applied.  He's got the alt/potential speed, but he's following my lead.  I'm dictating the terms of our fight...

By staying out from under him, and getting him to chase/follow me I'm able to neutralize his alt advantage, dodge his attack, and acquire a position behind him with enough E to pressure him.  I have quite a bit of respect for this pilot, and in all honesty he isn't in his "normal" ride, so I'm sure that played a factor.  But watching this film actually shows pretty clearly how a lower plane can turn the tables against a higher plane.

http://www.mediafire.com/?nmm3wzmadhl


This second film is a bit more fast and furious, but I employ basically the same tactics.  Eventually the 190 gets in front of me and makes two big mistakes- one, the flat turn to the right, and two, the "vertical suicidal zoom 'o death".  I was behind him, but didn't have him under control.  That flat turn gave me control; his dive could have allowed him to extend, but he went vert and died.


http://www.mediafire.com/?eymyoygwhw2

[stran]

nice vids.

[Steve]

At the start of this film, I'm being tempted to follow a rope.  My opponent has roughly 3000ft alt advantage over me.  Knowing the folly of being roped, I turn away and begin to take away his alt advantage. 

Yes yes. People incorrectly believe that roping is the simplest form of fighting. Truth is, most people just zoom up and see if some poor sap is silly enough to follow. Even then the roper tends to have poor timing and ends up HO'ing  a climbing plane or chasing a diving one.

To rope well though, one must entice the victim with the illusion that he has closure and he will get a gun solution before he stalls, then pounce on him, not when his nose falls but before, so that you have a gun solution as he is no longer flying, but just hanging in the air, helpless to avoid your onslaught. This involves the often mislabeled and misused spiral rope.

Think of the spiral rope as a spring coil. As you start the rope, keep the coil of your flight path tight so you are masking E and your victim has closure. Then, before he gets to guns... but just before... loosen your coil so you are climbing more, just out of his reach. A smart pilot might sense the trap, but even here it is probably too late. I arrange the E states so that he gets so close that he is Pavlovian... he is sure he's going to get me. Then I come over the top, sometimes I have to get off the throttle and dump flaps to keep me from coming down too soon, and pop him as he helplessly flops around. Sometimes I kill a friend of his as well, just for kicks.     

So, no simple move a good rope. You have to be a fine judge of E states and abilities of assorted planes. flaps, throttle, SA... all this comes into play. A good rope is artful and quite involved in the execution.  These films are quite short:

http://www.mediafire.com/?jwtim3mztu5

http://www.mediafire.com/?z2wmwznyd4j

http://www.mediafire.com/?ciyogiwmmzn

[CAP1]

thanks!!

i tried watching them on this puter....at work. they don't work.......it's something with this machine....the way the views keep switching, it looks like a paranoid crackhead runnin from the police. 

i'll check them out tonight though when i get home from my other job.

[DamnedRen]

LTC, lemme know if you'd like a post on a "how to rope a dope" on this forum.

It's a fairly simple affair if you know the mechanics of it and you know, I break it down into terms that even I can understand.

Reading is fun but taking what you read and see'n it in person is a
whole other ball game.

Ren

[Steve]

LTC, lemme know if you'd like a post on a "how to rope a dope" on this forum.

It's a fairly simple affair if you know the mechanics of it and you know, I break it down into terms that even I can understand.

Reading is fun but taking what you read and see'n it in person is a
whole other ball game.

Ren

huh?

[DamnedRen]

Steve, yer a great roper!

I spend alot of time with the new folks trying to show em the "how to's" in the TA. Every once in a while I type out a specific type of
tactic that can be readily employed. I try to bring it to its lowest common denominator. From there it's easy to get everyone the
same page. I did a previous "how to" by explaining the "defensive egg" or how a hard boiled egg and a pencil can show anyone how a
plane flies through a 3D environment (or sky) and why a yoyo works, or a flat turn doesn't. It's a simple as sitting a hard boiled egg
on it's fat end and taking your pencil and drawing a line from any starting point on it's surface around it in any direction and coming around to meet that same starting point (or not). The line drawn on the egg shows how a plane moves through the air.  Simple, direct, understandable and opens up eyes.

There is a simple way of explaining a rope. Again, I take it to it's most basic form of Energy and perceived view by both sides. For example, a simple tuck under when attacked near the deck forces the attacker to turn much flatter than he may want to. If he continues
his turn to stay in the fight the defensive guy merely does a gentle 90 degree turn (same direction) which forces the attacker to turn a full 270 degree turn under heavy G loads. Under these conditions the defensive guy just took control of the fight because he negated the attackers Energy advantage and now is in a position to set the guy up for an easy rope. The only thing required at that point is general knowledge of the attackers plane type. At a given point the (not to be revealed yet) he does another gentle turn and continues on his way. To the attacker it "appears" the defensive guy is not really roping him and a little more turn and pull and the shot is his. Little does the attacker know that the rope really began when he attacked and performed a 270 turn to stay in the fight. BTW, I wonder when any one out there actually payed attention to how many degrees they're turned in a fight?

See what I mean by simple? Get down to the basics, give em an understanding of Relative E states and how to manipulate them, provide them with the turns required to present an entirely different "view" than what is actually happening and the rope ends with a stalled attacker getting a free trip (as long as he wasn't in a perked plane) back to the tower.

Only problem with teaching this is everyone and their bro will be thinking about how to defeat it before they've even tried it. Then
use it every chance they get once they understand just how easy it is.

Ren

   

[CAP1]

ren,

you make a very good point in your first sentence of your last post. helping noobs. i;m sure that there's plenty of people like me......a noob, but not a noob. what i mean by that, is that there's people that get more flight hours logged in a month than i(and others like me) log in 6 months to a year.  i;ve been lucky to top 20 hours a month for quite awhile. you explained some things to me very clearly, and very easily "mentally" pictured. but when it comes right down to it, it still takes practice. that's why i've been in the ta more than the ma's. in the ta, most people don;t have egos. they help. in some way shape or form, they help. then wnen one of you guys comes online, you guys spend a lot of your online time helping us.

 the film you offered.....yes please. i'm at mcguire on my laptop right now, but will be home by midnight. i'm gonna d/l both mtnmans and steves films, and yours too if it's there. they help a lot too.

 i wish people would realize how good of a resource we have at our fingertips here.


thanks guys!!

<<S>>