Question for all the people who call the spitfire 16 a noob plane.

[Saurdaukar]

If the Spit XVI is such an uber ride in the hands of an experienced pilot and it's one of my primary rides (and I consider myself experienced) why do I have consistantly better K/D rates in all of these?

<snip>

And nearly equal K/D rates in these?

<snip>

Because they force you to think before you engage.  You cant just hurl a P51D into a multi-con engagement and expect to live.  You need to consider your situation, consider your weaknesses and engage accordingly.

With the 16, since there are no weaknesses, you just dive right in.

As moot stated, any player-specific K/D comparison between the Spit16, which has no real deficiency compared to the rest of the plane set, and an aircraft which DOES have deficiencies (every other one), is a poor test because the flight mentality is different, making the results of the test invalid. 

Honestly I dont really understand why this discussion is even continuing.  Stating that the 16 is not a UFO is ridiculous.  It is.

So, cutting through all that BS, lets just call it what it is: those claiming the 16 is not a UFO would simply rather feel good about themselves when they land kills in it instead of feel ashamed because they are perceived to require a crutch by the rest of the community.

The 16 is a UFO.  Thats not bad.  Thats not good.  It just is what it is.  Period, end of story. 

Hell, if moots films arent enough, I'd be glad to participate in some testing if you like.  I think Ive flown twice in the past few weeks so I'm way out of tune to begin with, which should work even better.  So long as I'm in a 16, you can fly whichever other aircraft you like because the result will be the same, regardless. 

I'll even fold laundry at the same time, or something.

[moot]

The only reason I'm making waves when I call out the spit16 for what it is, is that I don't hide the fact that I dislike the plane. It'd be hypocritical to do so. Anyone else could have presented these arguments and they would have gone by even less challenged.
Nowhere did I say, nor do I think, that someone should feel bad about flying it, or liking the thing, whether historically or e.g. from a design point of view. I don't care at all about that, about the players in those spitfires.. fly it and flog it to death. It's what the game's about, the passion (however embarassing) for flying and dogfighting even if just in pixels. 

[Krusty]

Like moot, I'm open in my general dislike for the spit16, but for different reasons. I think the flight model is inaccurate. I think it's generally a buggy FM that allows such UFO manuvers.

However, that said, there is NO QUESTION that the spit16 and spit8 are total UFOs.

[Kotari]

I have only one thing to add to m00tīs posts.

Resorting to flying the 16 for getting kicks of winning against more skilled individuals in lesser planes, is like enjoying dancing tango in a certain bar featured in the movies "Police Academy" ...just plain wrong to my taste, but hey, like everyone says "its their choice" 

[mechanic]

the 16 does have one profound weakness, that being a very weak airframe. Wings fall off after a few pings. That is its only weakness apart from the pilot, who can only themself make the difference between 10 kills and a lawn dart.

[MachFly]

Well moot I agree with that, I know spit 16 allows you to make a hole bunch of mistakes and still survive, and I do agree that it should be perked. The reason why I told you to get thous kills is because you were bragging about it.

The reason why I started this thread is to see weather most people just disrespect it because it's easy to fly and alot of un-experienced people fly it or for some other reason. On 200 I see alot of people calling it dweebfire, noobfire, or what ever it was, the problem I have with that is it's a spitfire and it earned it place in history. Therefore it should be respected, no matter who fly's it.

So moot do you respect the spitfire as an airplane or not? You might call the people who are flying it "noobs" but it's just not right to call an airplane that. And here is an example why:

Today one of our bases fell under attack of a bish CV and there were just not enough rooks to protect it. I took of on a spitfire 16 because it was about 5-7 rooks vs 20+bish. I'm pretty sure all thous bish were screaming get that noob or something like that just because I was in spitfire 16, but what do you expect me to take? P-40? 190? P-38? Tiffy? For a low alt outnumbered defense mission. And even thought I was on a superior aircraft it was not easy because I was outnumbered. During my 1st sorti I ran out of ammo and went back to base, I landed 6 kills, and i'm pretty sure about 80% of the people that were online and sow it thought "what a noob". You tell me, what that a noob thing to do? Or should have I just ditched the kills like one guy in my old squad did ones because he was ashamed of being seen in spitfire 16?

[caldera]

Saying that is easy to get kills in is not giving respect to the plane?

[grizz441]

Quote from: MachFly on April 07, 2009, 09:17:52 PM
I landed 6 kills, and i'm pretty sure about 80% of the people that were online and sow it thought "what a noob". You tell me, what that a noob thing to do? Or should have I just ditched the kills like one guy in my old squad did ones because he was ashamed of being seen in spitfire 16?

There's probably a higher chance that 80% didn't see the msg, 19% who did see didn't care, and 1% cared for about 1.98 seconds.

[mechanic]

 

[pipz]

? You might call the people who are flying it "noobs" but it's just not right to call an airplane that.

Your rite after all planes have feelings too ya know <G>

Pipz

[moot]

It can't be perked.. It's just outside of perk worthiness.. If it gets perked, it shouldn't be for more than 1 or 2 perks max., and then some other planes would deserve as much.

The one weakness of the spit16 is that it isn't very fast level. That it's not rugged is mostly mitigated by how easily it dodges fire.

The respect thing is pretty nebulous. What does that mean?  That I esteem its ability, or its design, or the esthetics, or as an actor in the AH arenas, or historically, the list goes on of all the different aspects to "respecting" an airplane.  And even if you dislike it as I do, you may very well just neither respect nor disrespect it.. just be indifferent to it. I'm somewhere between those two.  I have no problem admitting that historically it was on the "good guys" side, and that it was instrumental in beating the evil bad guys. Or that it's pretty much what you want to give soldiers in a war, namely a tool that's polyvalent and easy to use, forgiving and efficient, a design as foolproof as you can get them.  In war it doesn't matter whatsoever how stupid something looks, only that it gets the job done. In that respect the spitfire is a great plane. It very much is one of the quintessential WWII warbird designs.

But in AH I think it's a bore, in fact I stopped soon after getting those magic 10 kills because the plane literally evaporates my motivation. Aside the fact that esthetically it's ugly as sin, it gives you no challenge. It flies around with no character, no quirks, it's bland as Honda's ASIMO bot's tango routine. It's neither hot nor cold, it's a pedestrian ride that I literally want to fly into the ground so I can move on to something more engaging.  I mean that's the whole point of the game. To have the game grab your interest and pull you into the experience.
When I see some guys flying the spitfire in a furball, I just wonder wtf the point is. You aren't playing with the other guy because you're not offering any sort of level competition.  The only way to compete with the spit while in e.g. a 190 is to skewer it BNZ style.  And I can do that fine, but it's boring.  It's boring to have so many players flying a kite that doesn't push them to improve their ACM so that the fights are at least a little varied instead of the same couple of flat turns, generic loops, or negative G dodges, all with mile-wide margins of error. That huge allowable margin of error removes most of the accountability for good versus bad decisions and enables the persistance of lower, rather than higher, quality of dogfighting craft.   That right there is what dweeb is about.  Winning without earning it.

You might call the people who are flying it "noobs"

Where, show me where I said that.  I said the Spit16 is a noob plane. There's a difference. It lends itself to noobs and enables bad flying to go "unpunished".  Make a mistake in e.g. a 190A8 or A20.. and your bellybutton is grass. Night and day difference.

and i'm pretty sure about 80% of the people that were online and sow it thought "what a noob"

wrong again.

Or should have I just ditched the kills like one guy in my old squad did ones because he was ashamed of being seen in spitfire 16?

again

I'm pretty sure all thous bish were screaming get that noob or something like that just because I was in spitfire 16,

again

but what do you expect me to take? P-40? 190? P-38? Tiffy?

Fly whatever you want, that's beside the point. You could very well have flown any of those successfully. Though it would have been way harder than with the S16, and the P40 would be a particularily dodgy choice.

I have only one thing to add to m00t´s posts.

Resorting to flying the 16 for getting kicks of winning against more skilled individuals in lesser planes, is like enjoying dancing tango in a certain bar featured in the movies "Police Academy" ...just plain wrong to my taste, but hey, like everyone says "its their choice" 

Nothing to add, but that I think it's fine when the spit16 allows even odds.  That makes fights as good as they're meant to be.. I don't care who's in the spit16/8/9.  But the Spit16 is overkill for all but the players lowest along the learning curve.

[MachFly]

The respect thing is pretty nebulous. What does that mean?  That I esteem its ability, or its design, or the esthetics, or as an actor in the AH arenas, or historically, the list goes on of all the different aspects to "respecting" an airplane.  And even if you dislike it as I do, you may very well just neither respect nor disrespect it.. just be indifferent to it. I'm somewhere between those two.  I have no problem admitting that historically it was on the "good guys" side, and that it was instrumental in beating the evil bad guys. Or that it's pretty much what you want to give soldiers in a war, namely a tool that's polyvalent and easy to use, forgiving and efficient, a design as foolproof as you can get them.  In war it doesn't matter whatsoever how stupid something looks, only that it gets the job done. In that respect the spitfire is a great plane. It very much is one of the quintessential WWII warbird designs.

exactly, proves my point

But in AH I think it's a bore, in fact I stopped soon after getting those magic 10 kills because the plane literally evaporates my motivation. Aside the fact that esthetically it's ugly as sin, it gives you no challenge. It flies around with no character, no quirks, it's bland as Honda's ASIMO bot's tango routine. It's neither hot nor cold, it's a pedestrian ride that I literally want to fly into the ground so I can move on to something more engaging.  I mean that's the whole point of the game. To have the game grab your interest and pull you into the experience.
When I see some guys flying the spitfire in a furball, I just wonder wtf the point is. You aren't playing with the other guy because you're not offering any sort of level competition.  The only way to compete with the spit while in e.g. a 190 is to skewer it BNZ style.  And I can do that fine, but it's boring.  It's boring to have so many players flying a kite that doesn't push them to improve their ACM so that the fights are at least a little varied instead of the same couple of flat turns, generic loops, or negative G dodges, all with mile-wide margins of error. That huge allowable margin of error removes most of the accountability for good versus bad decisions and enables the persistance of lower, rather than higher, quality of dogfighting craft.   That right there is what dweeb is about.  Winning without earning it.

yes, i completely agree that it's much easier to fly spit 16 than most other planes and more boring.

Where, show me where I said that.

When I said you I did not mean you moot, i meant you in general, as people.

wrong again.
again
again

you are entitled to your opinion.

[Krusty]

Batty says the only weakness is a weak airframe. I disagree. I've put many solid 2x20mm bursts into spits numerous times and not killed them. It's a solid plane (as much as most average planes). It's definitely no A6M, that's for sure.

Moot says the only weakness is the slow speed. Consider it out accelerates 90% of the planeset and has a top speed more than most of the planes in the game. That means at any point UNDER the max speed it can out-accelerate whatever it's chasing and run it down. With a small dive it can build up ungodly amounts of speed and HOLD it after levelling for stupidly long amounts of time.

Speed is not an issue. YOu run into a spit16 and you know you can't run from it unless you're in a pony. [EDIT: And even then I've successfully chased down fleeing P51Ds in my spit16 many times]


It outclimbs everything, outturns everthing, outshoots everything, outruns almost everything, outaccelerates almost everthing. There is no weakness (save for range, which isn't an issue for unbalancing planes)

[Ack-Ack]

Batty says the only weakness is a weak airframe. I disagree. I've put many solid 2x20mm bursts into spits numerous times and not killed them. It's a solid plane (as much as most average planes). It's definitely no A6M, that's for sure.

I have to agree with batfink.  The Spitfire's wing and tail section are rather weak and it only takes a single burst to either remove the wing or the tail.  I didn't even bother to waste any 20mm rounds on any of the Spitfires, a single burst of .50s is enough to kill one. 


ack-ack

[moot]

Machfly, it's my opinion that those player's assumption that the guy in the spit16 is a noob is a hasty conclusion and more importantly beside the point. "Is he going to be a fun playmate" would be more relevant.