Service Introduction Dates for AH Planes

[funkedup]

EDIT:  I changed my question and my criterion.

Please nit-pick the following list.  My criterion is squadron strength operations in a combat theater.  I'm also interested in delivery dates in-theater, dates for production startup, etc.

A6M5b Jan-44
Ar 234B Dec-44
B-17G Jun-43
B-26B May-42
Bf 109F-4 Jun-41
Bf 109G-10 Oct-44
Bf 109G-2 Jul-42
Bf 109G-6 Mar-43
C.202 Jul-41
C.205 Jan-43
C-47A Dec-41
F4U-1 Jan-43
F4U-1C Apr-45
F4U-1D Apr-44
F4U-4 Apr-45
F6F-5 Jul-44
Fw 190A-5 Jan-43
Fw 190A-8 Jan-44
Fw 190D-9 Aug-44
Fw 190F-8 Mar-44
Hurricane IIc Apr-41
Hurricane IId Jun-42
Il-2 Type 3 Oct-42
Ju 88A-4 Dec-40
Ki-61-I-KAIc Nov-42
La-5FN Mar-43
La-7 Jun-44
Lancaster III Mar-42
Me 262 Apr-44
Mosquito Mk VI Jul-43
N1K2-J Feb-45
P-38L Jul-44
P-47D-11 Aug-43
P-47D-25 Jun-44
P-47D-30 Oct-44
P-51B Dec-43
P-51D Mar-44
Seafire IIc Oct-42
Spitfire IX Jul-42
Spitfire V Apr-41
Ta 152H Feb-45
TBM-3 Jan-42
Tempest V Apr-44
Typhoon IB Jun-42
Yak-9T Jan-43
Yak-9U Mar-44

[ 11-09-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]

[ 11-09-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]

[Karnak]

How picky you want us to be?

For example, the B-17G has a late model tail turret.  This B-17G would not have been the one listed in the general B-17G service entry date.

You want the B-17G date or the Late Model B-17G date? Or is it our choice?


Edit:

Here's my Mossie data:

Mosquito Mk VI: July, 1943 in 157, 605 Squadrons, "De Havilland Mosquito" by Martin W. Bowman

I've got an errend to run, I'll look at more later.

[ 10-30-2001: Message edited by: Karnak ]

[funkedup]

Use the designation HTC uses.  E.g. they call it a B-17G.  So I want the first date that any subvariant of B-17G reached squadrons in Europe.

[HoHun]

Hi Funked,

since your post coincedes with the RPS discussion on this board, let me suggest that we should try to define the RPS principles before actually coming up with introduction dates.

Here are my ideas:

- The introduction dates should rely on actual combat missions of at least squadron strength.

- When mixing different theaters, aircraft of nations that at the time weren't at war should be introduced according to the date of reaching operational combat-readiness.

- The introduction dates for specific subtypes should flexibly take into account the introduction dates of earlier subtypes not modelled in the game. (Karnak already mentioned a B-17 example)

- Bomber/attack aircraft can be handled with greater flexibility than fighters due to the smaller type selection and the fact that they don't compete directly against each other.

- Jets may require playability compromises.

- Creativity can turn any RPS problem into an opportunity to improve overall gameplay :-)

I hope you find my suggestions interesting :-) Any comments would be appreciated!

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[funkedup]

Hohun said:

 

The introduction dates should rely on actual combat missions of at least squadron strength.

I disagree a little with that, only because there are some aircraft (e.g. Ta 152H, Ar 234) in the planeset for which no evidence exists of squadron-strength usage!  Hence my choice of delivery date in-theater.  Otherwise we are in agreement.

[Sancho]

P-47D-25 should be June 1944, not '43.

[Raubvogel]

German stuff looks spot on. Not familiar enough with the other stuff. One note: that date for the Ar234 is correct, but it was for photo recon only. I believe the first bombing sorties weren't flown until August or September if we want to get real picky  

[Sundog]

The Typhoon we have is a late model 1b. The version with your introduction date should be the early 1b version  with the three bladed prop and still had the car-style doors. Also, the rocket's weren't available on the Tiffy until the Fall of 1943. The four bladed prop wasn't on production Tiffy's until 1944 (According to Squadron Signals In Action number 102 on the Tiffy and Tempest).     Just being picky! Nice work Funked. I hadn't realized they threw those 20mms on the hurri so early as well.

[ 10-30-2001: Message edited by: Sundog ]

[-ammo-]

I think the P-51B showed in the UK for combat in late Decmeber 43, will find reference. I read it in P-47 book

[funkedup]

Please be picky guys, that's why I posted the list.  
Thanks!

[HoHun]

Hi Funked,

>I disagree a little with that, only because there are some aircraft (e.g. Ta 152H, Ar 234) in the planeset for which no evidence exists of squadron-strength usage! Hence my choice of delivery date in-theater. Otherwise we are in agreement.

I'd rather make an exception for aircraft like these, if necessary, than to deviate from this rule. (In quite a few cases aircraft were delivered to the front before being actually operationally ready.)

However, the Focke-Wulf Ta 152H actually saw combat in squadron strength (probably for the first time) with III./JG301 on February 25, 1945. (Willi Reschke, "Jagdgeschwader JG301/302 'Wilde Sau'"). Later, operational losses reduced the number of available aircraft, restricting use of the Ta 152H to the Stabsschwarm only.

The Arado Ar 234B saw combat in squadron strength for the fist time on December 25, 1944, when III./KG76 launched an attack against Liege with 9 jet bombers. (Ethell/Price, "Deutsche Düsenflugzeuge im Kampfeinsatz").

Good list, by the way, it matches the dates I've found well, allowing for the usual error margin :-)

Some observations:

- 1st combat use of F4U-1 was February 1943 I thought?
- As far as I can tell, the Me 109G-10 was introduced in the second half of 1944 only
- The F6F date you give seems to be for the F6F-3 subvariant
- The Seafire IIc date seems to be that for the Ib variant.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[fats]

The Prien & Rodeike book says G-10 production ran from October '44 until the end of war. No mentioning of first deliveries, but I imagine if they manufactured ~2600 of these during that  time it didn't take long before the first were delivered


// fats

[gatt]

Heya Funked,

- yes, the C.202 was operational at 1° and 4° Stormo during july-august 1941;
- actually, the C.205 was operational (again) at 1° and 4° Stormo during january-february 1943.

Good work!      

[ 10-31-2001: Message edited by: gatt ]

[R4M]

nitpick mode ON:

the A6M5a was in service in late-43 but the -b was not in service until early January, I think. Both planes had differences in weapons (and protection too, I think)

Ar-234 was used in July -44 for recce over Normandy but as bomber was not used until very very late '44. Not sure bout the exac date.

Several sources I've read list the 109G2 as an EARLY 1942 plane and the 109G6 as a LATE 1942 plane. Not sure about those two, tho.

F4U-1 didnt see any operational usage until early 1943

F6F-3's first operatios were in early-mid 1943. not sure about F6F-5 but for sure Oct-42 is a very very early time even for a F3 IMO.

The Lancaster we have is a very late war one. Same goes for typhoon.

And the few things I've read about russian planes say it was a 1945 plane. But I can be VERY wrong on this one (we discussed it online yesterday).

[csThor]

AFAIK the first La5FN entered service just prior ot Kursk Battle. The ones before were either La5 or La5F ...