Which significant WWII combat aircraft where designed after the war started?

[Motherland]

Which Ta-152?

[Stoney]

Which Ta-152?

The H model--the one we have in game?  You can't build a wing that different, stretch the fuselage and build an entirely new empenage on the fly.  That's a ton of differences with respect to how it will behave aerodynamically.

[Krusty]

That's why production started with the D-9, with no preceding D-1, -2, -3, etc.- the Fw 190D-9 was an Fw 190A-9 with only the modifications required for the Jumo 213 to operate and for the airframe to have acceptable stability.

I disagree. The Dora didn't start at -0 because it picked up where the 190C left off, with a redesignation.

Beaufighters were made with as many parts from a Beaufort bomber as possible to speed up production time. Similar planes were tested on the US side (can't recall the name, used P51 tail, etc). The high alt prototype the LW designed shared a lot of shapes/likenesses as the Bf109, but was a different design (again sharing parts to speed up production).

The 190D can be said to be a variant (I sort of agree), but the Ta152 was drastically different in internal layout, weaponry, pressurized cockpits, performace, and pretty much only shared a fuselage/tail with the 190A models, for production simplicity.

[Baumer]

From all the information I have on Fw's the Ta-152 was intended to be a modification of the 190 series. The Dora series was an intermediate step to the Ta-152. If Hitler hadn't gotten involved by trying to reward Kurt Tank, it would have had an Fw 190 designation instead of Ta. The plug to lengthen the Ta's fuselage is similar to the plug in the Dora tail, just longer. As to the wing design, it is significantly different, but it was intended to  mate to the 190 fuselage in exactly the same manner.

So based on the information I  have, It's my opinion that they didn't use the components because they were available. Instead, they used the components because they were tasked with modifying an existing design to create the Dora, and ultimately the Ta-152.


[hijack-warning]
unless we want to get into the specifics of the orders that were placed to build the aircraft we're discussing, we many want to approach this differently. A different discussion/thread might be in order, something like "How much of an aircraft design can be modified before it should be considered a new design?"
[/hijack-warning]

[Motherland]

I disagree. The Dora didn't start at -0 because it picked up where the 190C left off, with a redesignation.

Beaufighters were made with as many parts from a Beaufort bomber as possible to speed up production time. Similar planes were tested on the US side (can't recall the name, used P51 tail, etc). The high alt prototype the LW designed shared a lot of shapes/likenesses as the Bf109, but was a different design (again sharing parts to speed up production).

The 190D can be said to be a variant (I sort of agree), but the Ta152 was drastically different in internal layout, weaponry, pressurized cockpits, performace, and pretty much only shared a fuselage/tail with the 190A models, for production simplicity.

There's not really any room to disagree...


5.1 Focke-Wulf Technical Description No. 268: The Fw 190 D-9

A. General
The Fw 190 D single seater is the result of a requirement to install the Jumo 213 A in the Fw 190 A-8 airframe with the minimum possible modifications to the fuselage. It is intended that the Jumo 213 A standard power plant should find the widest possible use. There is no engine mounted cannon, however the engine is designed in such a way as to allow the later installation of the MK 108 (but not the MK 103). A .5 meter fuselage extension required for reasons of stability partly compensates for the aircraft's nose-heaviness resulting from the installation of the heavier engine. Depending on the equipment installed in the aircraft, 10 to 30 kg of ballast has to be affixed in the vertical stabilizer.
The Fw 190 D-9 represents an interim solution pending the introduction of the Ta 152 and will be delivered in limited numbers hence the requirement to minimize changes and associated costs. For reasons of engine availability, the large production numbers planned for the Fw 190 make it necessarky to introduce as soon as possible a version powered by the Jumo 213 A to complement those powered by the BMW 801 TH (*Fw 190 A-9) engines. As well, the Fw 190 D represents a back up solution in the event that deliveries of the BMW 801 engine are halted for reasons associated with the war.





I made a mistake in my last post, there was a D-1 and -2. However these were developments of the C series/Ta-153 (DB 603) and were completely independent of the D-9+/Ta 152.

[Ack-Ack]

Correct, just like I am not counting Germany's actions prior to their invasion of Poland.  Basically just looking at the major participants involvement with each other.  I guess I could have counted Japan vs Russia, but I never got the impression that either side learned much from that.

True, most of Japan's lessons learned with their war with China before Pearl Harbor was mostly tactical in nature. 


ack-ack

[Angus]

Did anyone mention the Tiffie/Tempest?

[Die Hard]

Did anyone mention the Tiffie/Tempest?

1937/1938

[Widewing]

1937/1938

First flight was October 1939; Vulture powered Tornado (Sabre powered airframes were Typhoons). Sabre wasn't ready until 1940.



My regards,

Widewing

[Die Hard]

First flight was October 1939; Vulture powered Tornado (Sabre powered airframes were Typhoons). Sabre wasn't ready until 1940.



My regards,

Widewing

Design process started right after Hawker finished the Hurricane in 1937.

[Widewing]

Design process started right after Hawker finished the Hurricane in 1937.

It did, but a design process means little. 99% of the time, the concept and the final design are as different as night and day. Designs begin as engineering studies. Until you start cutting metal, a design is really nothing more than an illustrated idea. Thus, I would classify the start of construction of a prototype as the date of significance.


My regards,

Widewing

[Die Hard]

March 1938 then.

[Widewing]

March 1938 then.

I believe that manufacturing drawings began being released in May of 1938. Drawings are released to manufacture components, so I would set the date at May of 1938. Still well over a year before the war began.

My regards,

Widewing

[Die Hard]

I believe that manufacturing drawings began being released in May of 1938. Drawings are released to manufacture components, so I would set the date at May of 1938. Still well over a year before the war began.

My regards,

Widewing

I'm not going to argue exactly when the "process" of building a prototype starts; that you now agree it was 1938 is good enough for me.

1937/1938

[chris3]

Ahh, those beloved LW myths

The first "Flitzer" studies started in 43/44

The Vampire had it's maiden flight in September 43...

moin Lusche, dam you got me again, didnt knew that. i thought it for years because of the same locking and the knewing that the vampire is a bird of the 50s-60s but i have wikepediaded it yesterday, you are right, i learn something new every day lol.


cu chris3