Author Topic: Will the TA 152 have a mk103 or mk108 30mm ? (Read 1297 times)

ygsmilo · « **on:** February 27, 2001, 07:45:00 AM »

?

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Milo
3./JG2
"Speed is the cushion of sloppiness"

Jochen · « **Reply #1 on:** February 27, 2001, 08:00:00 AM »

Most sources say it used Mk 108 which is easy to belive since it was much lighter and shorter than Mk 103.

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jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski

Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.

Sieg oder bolsevismus!

Tony Williams · « **Reply #2 on:** February 27, 2001, 01:12:00 PM »

Most versions had the MK 108 but the C-3 was supposed to have been fitted with the MK 103.

Tony Williams
Author: Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces.
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/

SageFIN · « **Reply #3 on:** February 28, 2001, 11:04:00 AM »

How widely (or should I say scarcely) was the Mk103 used anyway? What planes and factory conversion kits there were that sported the 103? At least some Fw190 variants had them but I can't remember if they were field or factory conversions and if they were factory conversions, were they produced in numbers.

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SageFIN

"I think I´ll believe in Gosh instead of God. If you don´t
believe in Gosh too, you´ll be darned to heck."
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flakbait · « **Reply #4 on:** February 28, 2001, 02:49:00 PM »

The Mk-103 was one of those mythical guns you read about but rarely saw service. I don't know if any Fw-190 model used it in a production run, but there were test aircraft that mounted them. The only aircraft I know of to use a Mk-103 in action was the Me-410 R3, which mounted a pair of them in addition to its normal armament. Then again this could be just another rumor, since I've never seen a photo of a Mk-103 on an Me-410.

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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"For yay did the sky darken, and split open and spew forth fire, and
through the smoke rode the Four Wurgers of the Apocalypse.
And on their canopies was tattooed the number of the Beast, and the
number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb

Tony Williams · « **Reply #5 on:** February 28, 2001, 02:54:00 PM »

I think that the MK 103 saw most use as an anti-tank gun, slung under the Hs 129. In this role it fired tungsten-cored Hartkernmunition (or Wolframkern) which was highly effective. This plane/gun combination debuted in the battle of Kursk. In the air-to-air role it fire M-Geschoss, but I agree that it seems to have seen little use compared to the low-velocity MK 108. I think this is because for the same weight as one MK 103 they could have two MK 108, which between them had three times the rate of fire - and in close attacks against bombers, that's what counted.

Tony Williams
Author: Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces.
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/

Glunz · « **Reply #6 on:** February 28, 2001, 04:26:00 PM »

He 219 had it, Me 410 and also a variant of Me 262 (H. Baer's).

It was planned for Go 229 too

109K's had it, according to W. Green.

jihad · « **Reply #7 on:** February 28, 2001, 04:38:00 PM »

LOL!

The whinefest will be HUGE if this gun is modeled.

Hispanos are peashooters by comparison. <G>

niklas · « **Reply #8 on:** March 01, 2001, 01:15:00 AM »

i know from a installation of a mk103 in a Do335.

The mk103 is not the super weapon. The rate of fire is too low. Kinetic energy of the shells is absolutly uninteresting when you shoot with mine shells, regarding damage. Aiming is easier with a high muzzle velocity, but at the end of the war the full automatic Revi EZ42 was developed, what almost nullified the disadvantage of a low muzzle velocity for aiming.

Does someone know whether the mg213C was used (30mm 1150rounds/min mv 550m/s, 20mm 1200 r/min mv 1000m/s)? This is a weapon you´ve to fear

niklas

flakbait · « **Reply #9 on:** March 01, 2001, 01:22:00 AM »

Some quick info about the Mk-103:

Muzzle velocity: 2620 ft/sec
Shell weight: 11.55 ounces
Rate of Fire: 420 rounds a minute

Mk-108 info for comparison:

Muzzle velocity: 1656 ft/sec
Shell weight: 10.9 ounces
Rate of Fire: 600 rounds a minute

A heavier shell traveling 1,000 feet a second faster than a Mk-108 round and it's not a super weapon? LOL!

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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"For yay did the sky darken, and split open and spew forth fire, and
through the smoke rode the Four Wurgers of the Apocalypse.
And on their canopies was tattooed the number of the Beast, and the
number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb

Tony Williams · « **Reply #10 on:** March 01, 2001, 01:56:00 AM »

See my post above about the German perception of the advantages of the MK 108 compared to the Mk 103 - which is why the MK 103 saw little use in the air-to-air role, even though it came out before the Mk 108.

The MK 103 was too big to fit in the Bf 109; see my article posted on http://www.bf109.com/frameset.html

Both guns fired the same range of projectiles, and used M-Geschoss for air-to-air.

The MG 213C was tested in a Ta 152, IIRC, but did not enter service until nearly ten years later - as the Aden cannon

Tony Williams
Author: Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces.
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #11 on:** March 01, 2001, 01:56:00 AM »

There were several 262s in the shop being fitted out with MG213s as the war ended, full production of this gun was also getting underway, so late summer 45 262 were prolly to have these as standard. Interestingly enough there was a so called "mixed armament" 262 that did see service and some combat. This version had 2 MG151/20s, 2 MK108, and 2 MK103. Mite be a nice perk "perk" 262.

Sascha JG 77 · « **Reply #12 on:** March 01, 2001, 03:36:00 AM »

MK 103 on a HS 129 B (pic from www.unsere-luftwaffe.de)

The gun's looks instantly reminded me of the 30mm chaingun on the AH 64 Apache...

Sascha

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Jagdgeschwader 77 "Herz As!"

DB603 · « **Reply #13 on:** March 01, 2001, 04:06:00 AM »

S!

Regarding usage of ammo to A/A.At least FAF used a mixture of M-Geschoss,AP,API and API(with tracer capability) on the MG151/20.If this mixture would be modeled in the AH,then the 20mm would be more lethal than it is now.Maybe only M-Geschoss modeled?The API could penetrate 23mm(very close to 1") and then it also had this incendiary effect too.This data is from FAF archives I have had opportunity to read through.

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DB603
3.Lentue
Lentolaivue 34

Vermillion · « **Reply #14 on:** March 01, 2001, 08:53:00 AM »

DB603, "mixed" ammunition belts are modeled in AH for all weapons, and if you look at the relative lethality of the MG151/20 (in relation to the Hispano) it is easy to see that the Mine shell is included as a 1 in 3 loadout. I don't have the link handy, but Hooligan did a study of the guns in AH that backs this up.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

Author Topic: Will the TA 152 have a mk103 or mk108 30mm ? (Read 1297 times)

Glunz