Author Topic: Question on a couple of zeke skins....  (Read 1841 times)

Offline Krusty

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Question on a couple of zeke skins....
« on: April 11, 2009, 01:28:48 PM »
I've got a question on a couple of zeke skins in-game.

Busa never posts in this forum before submitting a couple-dozen skins, so I never had the chance to ask as they were built:



and




These are both on A6M5bs, and something tells me they don't belong.

What is NATC ?? Did these see combat? There were no a6m5s in white camo that I've *ever* run across. I'm suspecting one's a training unit and/or the other is a A6m3, which really isn't the same plane as a a6m5, performs more like a a6m2, but with a little more ammo (100rpg compared to 60 rpg).

So, anybody have any info on these?

Offline hammer

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Re: Question on a couple of zeke skins....
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2009, 10:09:08 AM »
Those are not white - they're a really light green. There's an A6M2 at the Air Force museum in Dayton in the same color.



As to whether that color scheme was used on A6M5s, I do not know.

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Offline Fencer51

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Re: Question on a couple of zeke skins....
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2009, 10:47:43 AM »
Little better picture from the AFM website..

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The names of the innocent and the guilty have not been changed.
As for the innocent, everyone needs to know they are innocent –
As for the guilty… they can suck it.

Offline Krusty

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Re: Question on a couple of zeke skins....
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2009, 12:42:32 PM »
I've noticed the tint, but generally call it a shade of white.

However I've never seen it on anything later than A6M2s and some M3s. The camo styles changed. Much like you wouldn't see BOB-era camouflage on a 109G14, these are out of place to my eyes.

Offline Krusty

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Re: Question on a couple of zeke skins....
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2009, 03:04:13 AM »
I happened to run across Busa01 today in LW Blue. I asked him directly and he said yet these are A6M3s. I said I don't think they fit on the A6M5 plane in AH, more like the M2 than the M5.

He tried to tell me that the A6M3 is exactly identical to the A6M5. I tried to tell him it's not. He kept asking me if I had the TAIC reports that he had. I said it doesn't matter, when almost every resource in every book says they are different.

Not only are the weapons different:
M3: 2x 7mms; 100 rpg for the 20mm Type 99 Mk.1 cannons,
M5: 1x 7mm, 1x 13mm; only 125 rpg for the 20mm Type 99 Mk.2

But the performance is different:
M3: Clipped wingtips, increased roll, reduced turn, many pilots disliked the loss of lift and loss of manuverability in the M3, but otherwise was VERY similar to the A6M2.
M5: Noticably faster, redesigned engine, with thrust ejector stubs to increase top speed. Better climb rate, worse turn due to shorter (not clipped, just shorter rounded) wingspan.

Not the least of which is top speed/power:
M3: some claims say top speeds is around 10-15mph faster than the M2, of which most is probably from clipping the wings. Many list in the 330s the top speed at 6000m. In AH2 the A6M2 does about the upper 330s for max speed around 15k (5000m-ish).
M5: some claims say top speeds is around 20+ mph faster than the M3. Top speeds over 350mph, and in AH2 the top speed just barely breaks 350mph at 20k.

The timeline is different:
M3 was out halfway through 1942
M5 didn't start flight trials until mid '43, most were 1944 planes.



Busa's misrepresented the A6M3 as an A6M5b, I say. He says the M5 IS an M3. It clearly is not. His argument is all about how the planes were named and the classifications, but when I pointed out they were distinct, regardless of how they were named, he didn't see my point.

So I'll post from wiki, because from all I've ever read on the A6M3, it has all been along these lines:

The new Sakae was slightly heavier and somewhat longer due to the larger supercharger, which moved the center of gravity too far forward on the existing airframe. To correct for this the engine mountings were cut down by 8 inches (200 mm), moving the engine back towards the cockpit. This had the side effect of reducing the size of the main fuel tank (located to the rear of the engine) from 518 litres to 470 litres.

[snip]

On the downside, maneuverability was reduced, and range suffered due to both decreased lift and the smaller fuel tank. Pilots complained about both. The shorter range proved a significant limitation during the Solomons campaign of 1942.

The first Model 32 deliveries began in April 1942, but it remained on the lines only for a short time, with a run of 343 being built.


And then on the A6M3a model:

In order to correct the deficiencies of the Model 32, a new version with the Model 21's folding wings, new in-wing fuel tanks and attachments for a 330 litre drop tank under each wing were introduced. The internal fuel was thereby increased to 570 litres in this model, regaining all of the lost range.

As the airframe was reverted from the Model 32 and the engine remained the same, this version received the navy designation Model 22, while Mitsubishi called it the A6M3a. The new model started production in December, and 560 were eventually produced.


So basically the first A6M3 had some changes over the A6M2 already in service, but the second A6M3a reversed most of those changes. The few mph advantage gained by clipping the wings was gone, the range was the same as the M2. Essentially it closely matched the performance of AH2's in-game A6M2 model.

However, the A6M5s had increased wing strength (thicker skins as well) to withstand much higher diving speeds and stresses, had a changed cowl flap system, ejector stubs, shorter wingspans (increased roll rate), different wing cannons (belt fed, not drum fed), a higher top speed, new improvements like armored glass and fire fighting equipment in the fuel tanks. None of which the M3 shared.

A6M3 is NOT an A6M5b. I'm sorry. I don't think these skins belong. It's like putting P-51C skins on a P-51D, despite all the differences, because of the way somebody reads how the name is spelled.

Online lyric1

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Re: Question on a couple of zeke skins....
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2009, 04:40:01 AM »
I think you may have proved your point so now what happens?

Offline busa

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Re: Question on a couple of zeke skins....
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2009, 05:17:01 AM »
Hello, krusty

I will make and translate the answer to your question.
Please read this before it.


About the model number of A6M

It was called the new model when engine exchange was carried out in IJNAF.
This classification method can express the difference of a performance briefly.
It writes it as "gou."
The meaning is "Mk."
Usually, it was called by this classification.
1gou Reisen Zero Mk1 (Model 11 and 21).  
2gou Reisen Zero Mk2 (Model [ 32 and 22 ], 22kou, 52, 52kou, 52otu).
By the way, when this classification is applied, it is as follows after Model52.
3gou Reisen Zero Mk3(63 Model52hei/53hei, 62) A6M5 c/A6M6, A6M7.
4gou Reisen Zero Mk4(Model64) A6M8.
Although this name was not used, development was performed by this classification.

When classifying in detail to a slight degree.
2gou Reisen kai (Model 22 and 52).
2gou Reisen kai marutan yoku(Model52)

When it was necessary to classify in more detail, the improvement number of Air Frame was added.
It writes it as "gata (kata)."
The meaning is "Mod."
for example, .
Reisiki kanjyou sentouki 1gou 2gata Zero Mk1 Mod2 (Model 21).
That is, "1" is a model number.
And "2" is a sub type.
So, it is not referred to as "2gata Reisen(Model21)3gata reisenn (Model32), 5gata Reisen (Model52)."

This most detailed way of calling was changed into "21gata, 32(model21) gata (Model32), 52gata (Model52)."
Generally this model number began to be used from 1943 age.
That is, Model22 and Model32 were not distinguished originally.
Both were "A6M3 Zero Mk2."
"Zero Mk2" (cliped wing) came to be called "32gata" after the production end.
Incidentally A6M5 were the last advanced type of A6M3.
Therefore, A6M5 were ordered from Mitubishi Avi by the name of A6M3 by IJNAF.
It was classified into "52gata" after that in August, 1943.
The serial number No. 3932 of A6M5 was "Reisen 22gata" (A6M3).
Since the U.S. Forces captured it, you can also check it.

About sub type"kou, otsu, and hei" which were added
The classification of kou, otsu, and "hei, etc" (A6M5a, b, c) was added in October, 1944.
It is for classifying a loading weapon.
Originally IJNAF did not have such a classification.
That is, the past airplane was reclassified newly.
 
Thank you for reading my poor English.

Offline busa

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Re: Question on a couple of zeke skins....
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2009, 05:52:53 AM »
Hello, this is busa01.

I can speak Englisha little.
I want this translation software to do good work.

Model32 and Model22 are contained in the skin of A6M5 which I submitted to HTC.
2NFG is Model32.
251NFG is Model22.
NATC3525 is production of No. 1 of Model52.
The serial number is Mitsubishi3525.
NATC is the abbreviation for Naval Aviation Technical Center.
This SQD has participated in the combat.
This Model52 was produced in March, 1943.
It notified that IJNAF painted A6M by "D1" Dark Green in April, 1943.
That is, this Model52 was Gray Green.
It is based on historical investigation also with an exact tail letter.

I make my children's supper after this.
Please wait a little about Model22 and Model32.

Thank you for reading my poor English.

Online lyric1

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Re: Question on a couple of zeke skins....
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2009, 06:51:38 AM »
Your English is turning out fine. Better than some of us who speak it.

Offline busa

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Re: Question on a couple of zeke skins....
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2009, 09:26:59 AM »
Hello, this is busa01.

About of A6M3.

Zero Mk1 (Model 11 and 21) installed Sakae12 engine.
It had the supercharger of a single speed single stage.
The Max power is 950hp / 4200m.

Zero Mk2 (Model  22, 32, and 52 , 52kou, 52otu, 52hei) installed Sakae21 engine.
It had the supercharger of 2 speed single stage.
The Max power is 1100hp / 2850m, and 980hp / 6000m.

Model32 is a different airplane in Model21.
And Model52 is the advanced type of Model32.

The manufacture numbers of Model 11 and 21 are consecutive numbers.
The manufacture numbers of Model 32, 22, and 52, 52kou, 52otu, and 52hei are consecutive numbers.

Incidentally A6M3a is not Model22.
It shows Model22kou.
And it is a model number when being re-classified in October, 1944.
By the way, the Type99 Mk2 Mod3 20mm gun was installed also in the late model Model32.
The U.S. Forces are investigating 20mm gun by the serial number 3305 of the air frame.
It could investigate also in your country.

By the way.
Do you have TAIC data? It is about the reason which I said.
In the TAIC test, Model32 demonstrated the good speed performance rather than Model52.
The Climb performance was almost equivalent.
These two models were installing the same engine.
The general flight performance was almost equivalent.
I was going to say.

I am carrying out carefully about historical investigation of the data submitted to flight simulator development companys.
The data to refer to are not only aviation magazines and books.
I get several manuals,  pilot handbooks, and experiment reports at the data room of the Department of Defense.
The proof which verifies them all and is considered to be righter is submitted.

Though regrettable, historical investigation of "wiki" of Imperial Japanese Air Plane in your country will be old for 15 years.
And though regrettable, my English capability is the about the same as a parrot.
That I explain the right new historical investigation takes time too much.

I explained that A6M5 were the last type of A6M3 series.
It is because it thought that you had said that Model32 is alike with Model21.
But I think that it is not not much important about this affair.
I explain why next the skin of A6M3 was submitted.

Thank you.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2009, 11:32:14 AM by busa »

Offline busa

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Re: Question on a couple of zeke skins....
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2009, 11:13:06 AM »
Hello.

I say bits of knowledge first.
Model22 pronounces with Model 2-2.
If it is Japanese, it will pronounce with "Nee Nee gata".

main subject.
I do not understand why you have dissatisfaction about the skin of A6M3.
I and other men have submitted the skin of F6F-3 to F6F-5.
There is also a skin of Pr model which does not have arms in Spitfire.
Ki61tei also has the skin which is not Model tei.
There are many such examples.

By the way, I did not submit the skin of A6M3 first.
However, I got to know that the skins of  different model for while were adopted.
And I also added the skin of A6M3.
If you think that you should make it stricter to a model number, you should propose to HTC.
However, how does it cope with that the model number A6M5b is the classification after a production end? .
Or what do you think of sub type classification of the German airplane not being carried out?

Since it is a special opportunity, I want to explain the reason for submitting skins.
Many people can play with a favorite skin.
Many missions are reproducible in the special event arena.
I want many people to know the skin of the right historical investigation. (Japanese airplane) .

I may consider, when using the airplane of a favorite skin.
When I am flying by F4U-1 of NS blue gray.
If the enemy plane which struggles in a gunsight is what airplane, is it pleasant? .
I am pleasant when an enemy plane is A6M3 of Green Gray or transitional camouflage paint.
Or A6M2 used for a long time.
I do the last adjustment of skins by distance 200yds.
It is glad when the people which do not use my skin also enjoy my skin.

Did my translation software do good work? .

Thank you for reading my poor English.

busa01.

Online lyric1

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Re: Question on a couple of zeke skins....
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2009, 12:43:30 PM »

Did my translation software do good work? .


busa01.
Yes. :aok

Offline Krusty

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Re: Question on a couple of zeke skins....
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2009, 01:07:18 PM »
I've shown how the A6M3 and A6M3a were both very similar in final performance to the A6M2.

I don't care if the 3 shared naming conventions with the A6M5b that we have in Aces High.

When you skin an aircraft that does not have the same plane model in-game, (such as the F6F-3, or A6M3) you must ensure that it most closely fits the plane model in-game that we have.

For example, if you wanted to skin a Bf110D, you have to choose between putting that skin on the Bf110C-4b, or the Bf110-G4. While there may be some differences with the engines, and the performance is better, the overall package is so much closer to the Bf110C-4b model that putting it on the 110G-4 defies all common sense.

Skinning a A6M3 or A6M3a I am fine with. However, you cannot place these on a plane that showed up a year later with MANY more changes in it. There are far more differences in performance and weaponry and equipment between the A6M3 and the A6M5b, than there are between the A6M3 and the A6M2. Therefore, the only plane these skins should "fit on" in Aces High is the M2.

No to mention the unhistorical aspect of putting white camo skins on later-war planes that never carried them. This is another aspect the A6M2 shares with the A6M3, they both shared the same paint schemes.

There should be no question about what plane the skins belong to, but somehow they're on the wrong plane.

Offline busa

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Re: Question on a couple of zeke skins....
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2009, 03:22:34 PM »
Do you understand the difference in the performance by the supercharger?
If you think that the performance of A6M3 resembles A6M2, you will need to study more about A6M series and supercharged engines.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2009, 03:32:07 PM by busa »

Offline busa

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Re: Question on a couple of zeke skins....
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2009, 03:48:00 PM »
Thank you, lyric1.
Your short comment helped me.