Invasion of Morroco

[CAVPFCDD]

So I'm watching Patton 360 right now and its all about our invasion of Morroco. I never really did too much studying into the North Africa campaign, so i was into shock when I was learning about the US fighting with the French Army.

So I've done some research now, and they were fighting the Vichy French... but I can't find anything too clear. The Vichy French was the puppet government set up by the nazis?

And why did they not just immediatly surrender and let the Americans take morroco and drive the nazis out of North africa?

I missed the begining of the episode, so I'm assuming they did some explaining then... help me history buffs, I'm really confused

[Meatwad]

I didnt catch the first part either

Equally confused the same

[Anaxogoras]

This dovetails really nicely with my thread below "BoF" http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,262695.0.html

In June 1940, there was a heated dispute among French generals over whether or not to surrender to Germany.  Some generals and politicians, like De Gaulle and Reynaud, were in favor of continuing to fight despite the loss of Paris.  Because of parliamentary politics that I do not quite grasp, Pétain attained chief executive power and signed a separate armistice with Germany (there had been an agreement between the UK and France never to make peace separately).  Reynaud was imprisoned, and De Gaulle fled to London where he lead the Free French, although he had a difficult time convincing the Americans and the British to take him seriously at first.

What was left of the French Republic became known as Vichy France because its administrative center was moved south to the city of Vichy.  Postwar it was decided that this government was illegal and unconstitutional, but at the time the US and UK treated it as the legitimate authority.

Why were some French soldiers willing to fight for the Vichy government?  I'm sure the answer is quite complicated, but remember that a soldier's job is to obey all orders provided that they are legal, and it was far from clear at the time that the Vichy government was illegal.  Some lingering resentment toward the UK might have also had something to do with it.  Not only did the UK leave the continent for the safety of Britain, they had also sunk the French fleet, killing more than 1000 French sailors.

[1pLUs44]

This dovetails really nicely with my thread below "BoF" http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,262695.0.html

In June 1940, there was a heated dispute among French generals over whether or not to surrender to Germany.  Some generals and politicians, like De Gaulle and Reynaud, were in favor of continuing to fight despite the loss of Paris.  Because of parliamentary politics that I do not quite grasp, Pétain attained chief executive power and signed a separate armistice with Germany (there had been an agreement between the UK and France never to make peace separately).  Reynaud was imprisoned, and De Gaulle fled to London where he lead the Free French, although he had a difficult time convincing the Americans and the British to take him seriously at first.

What was left of the French Republic became known as Vichy France because its administrative center was moved south to the city of Vichy.  Postwar it was decided that this government was illegal and unconstitutional, but at the time the US and UK treated it as the legitimate authority.

Why were some French soldiers willing to fight for the Vichy government?  I'm sure the answer is quite complicated, but remember that a soldier's job is to obey all orders provided that they are legal, and it was far from clear at the time that the Vichy government was illegal.  Some lingering resentment toward the UK might have also had something to do with it.  Not only did the UK leave the continent for the safety of Britain, they had also sunk the French fleet, killing more than 1000 French sailors.

Maybe they still were fighting for France. Not Germany, or for the Nazis, but France. Nationalism may have prompt them to keep fighting. I'd fight for Texas independently, whether it was a Republic again, or a state under the USA.

I think thats the easiest way I can explain it (even though America never invaded Texas and took it over of course)

[Masherbrum]

So I'm watching Patton 360 right now and its all about our invasion of Morroco. I never really did too much studying into the North Africa campaign, so i was into shock when I was learning about the US fighting with the French Army.

So I've done some research now, and they were fighting the Vichy French... but I can't find anything too clear. The Vichy French was the puppet government set up by the nazis?

And why did they not just immediatly surrender and let the Americans take morroco and drive the nazis out of North africa?

I missed the begining of the episode, so I'm assuming they did some explaining then... help me history buffs, I'm really confused

The US Armor was in over it's head in North Africa.  If not for the ferocity of the Eighth Army in the East, things would have been clearly different. 

[Sharrk]

The French Vichy forces had to put up some sort of resistance in North Africa, to make it appear that they were not just stepping over to the Allies side of the brall.
They were concerned with reprisals back in France from the Germans if they didnt.

[Marauding Conan]

This dovetails really nicely with my thread below "BoF" http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,262695.0.html

In June 1940, there was a heated dispute among French generals over whether or not to surrender to Germany.  Some generals and politicians, like De Gaulle and Reynaud, were in favor of continuing to fight despite the loss of Paris.  Because of parliamentary politics that I do not quite grasp, Pétain attained chief executive power and signed a separate armistice with Germany (there had been an agreement between the UK and France never to make peace separately).  Reynaud was imprisoned, and De Gaulle fled to London where he lead the Free French, although he had a difficult time convincing the Americans and the British to take him seriously at first.

What was left of the French Republic became known as Vichy France because its administrative center was moved south to the city of Vichy.  Postwar it was decided that this government was illegal and unconstitutional, but at the time the US and UK treated it as the legitimate authority.

Why were some French soldiers willing to fight for the Vichy government?  I'm sure the answer is quite complicated, but remember that a soldier's job is to obey all orders provided that they are legal, and it was far from clear at the time that the Vichy government was illegal.  Some lingering resentment toward the UK might have also had something to do with it.  Not only did the UK leave the continent for the safety of Britain, they had also sunk the French fleet, killing more than 1000 French sailors.

There was that. And there was the annimosity between the Free France faction and the Vichy France faction.

There's the issue of Petain. Some people in France still thought of him as the hero of WWI, and espected him to rearm France to take back the territory lost to Germany, not realising that he was more interested in power than in protecting France. But, ultimately, the resistance in Morocon was token by some accounts and they could have done more to push back the American landings. The key to the whole affair was that Patton gave the French administration a way out after the initial encounter... ok, it was more of a treath, but it allowed the US simpatiser to switch camps.

The key to this is that the US stepped into a civil war between French factions and they did it clearly in the side of the Free French.

[Angus]

BEFORE this ever happened, the British, had a scruffle with the French (Vichy) navy at DAKAR. That was 1940.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dakar
Even sooner was the Attack on Mers-el-Kébir. One of Churchills most difficult decisions, but the stakes were high, with the combined naval strength of both Vichy French and Italian, the Royal Navy would have been at disadvantage in the Med. Bear in mind, that the USA were not at war at that time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Mers-el-K%C3%A9bir
Also, ponder on what that could have meant. Anyway, later on in the long-term struggle, "On 27 November 1942, the Germans attempted to capture the French fleet based at Toulon, an operation known as Case Anton. The French scuttled all their ships including Dunkerque and Strasbourg."
In Alexandria there were French vessels as well:
"The French ships in Alexandria under command of Admiral René-Emile Godfroy, including the old battleship Lorraine and four cruisers, were blockaded by the British in port on 3 July and offered the same terms as at Mers-el-Kébir. After delicate negotiations, conducted on part of the British by Admiral Cunningham, the French Admiral agreed on 7 July to disarm his fleet and stay in port until the end of the war. They stayed there until they eventually joined the Allies in 1943."
So, Gerry didn't get the big boats after all.
While Vichy was a sort of a puppet state, they were not as exposed to the Nazi tyranny as the rest of France. And understandeably they wanted to keep it that way. Also bear in mind, that it looked as if the Germans might win. So, not a very good position.

Later on, the Germans gradually got a tighter grip on Vichy, and when the British kept on fighting and the USA joined on their side, the tables gradually turned. Yet, during operation Torch, late in 1942, the British were baffled by the "coldness" of the French in N-Africa.
Strange things happen in war....

[cpxxx]

If you notice in any pictures of American troops in Operation Torch. They are all wearing very large American flags on their arms and the vehicles also displayed the US flag prominently. This was deliberate to differentiate them from the British who the Vichy troops resented for the reasons described above. In the hope that resistance would be limited because there was no real hostility to America. If the British alone invaded the French would have resisted a lot more fiercely.

In fact the Vichy French had interned many British military who had fallen into their hands and actually treated them rather badly, even brutally. This fact was carefully papered over during the war in the interests of inter allied cooperation.

It was a strange situation really.

[Angus]

Darlan was one of the key figures there, and from the side of the allies often described as a "pompous thug".
Anyway, from the British point of view, there was nothing else to do. The French naval forces in the med, including their capital ships, were easily strong enough to tip the naval power balance in the med into complete axis favour. Vichy+Italy alone, aided with the Kriegsmarine (probably the weakest of the three) would have meant that the axis idea of supremacy in the med would have manifested. The British only held Gibraltar through naval power. And the one who holds Gibraltar has the key to the med.
So, the Vichy actually left the British no option. There was no chance to allow a force that strong to go Axis. Tip the balance, and the war would be lost to Britain.
As a second note, the Germans went into their plannings for Barbarossa. By then, they had (despite attempts and i.e. Hitler's meeting with Franco) no success in the med. So, thereby no easy road to the underbelly of the USSR, nor a submissive UK.
Looks small, but was a great chain of events there...

[MiloMorai]

There was also some combat with the Vichy AF in Syria.

Over Spanish Morocco, a Spanish He112B shot down (more like damaged and forced to crash land) an American P-38. This was on March 3 1942.

[Angus]

Think of what the range is there. There is a loooong way from Syria to Morocco. 4000 km, enough to make a joke of even the distances on the Eastern front
BTW, I have an account from some of he first P-38's arriving in Tunisia. Relatively green pilots.

[Anaxogoras]

In the great documentary series "The World at War," Mers-el-Kabir is portrayed as an attempt to impress the United States, and it did.   Remember, in the UK's darkest hour, Roosevelt had these friendly words for Churchill: "Don't let the Germans have your fleet.  Send it to Canada."

[Die Hard]

Think of what the range is there. There is a loooong way from Syria to Morocco. 4000 km, enough to make a joke of even the distances on the Eastern front

I don't think it is possible to make a joke of the distances of the Russian front, no matter how far it is from Syria to Morocco.

[MiloMorai]

What are you babbling about Angus?

The invasion of Syria and Lebanon began on 8 June 1941. In mid July 1941 the Vichy forces surrendered.

Torch was over a year later in Nov 1942.