m4a3 sherman and some others

[Angus]

Fanboi? Is that a French word ?
 

Anyway, DieHard, E25280 (what a name) sort of answered my question.
And Bigplay:
"If your referring to me as having less to do with Germans than you then you  made another mistake...... I am first generation American, both my parents were from Europe, my mother from Germany and father from Holland. My father saw the German army first hand since his country was occupied for most of WW2 and my Mother lived through the bombing and the raping Russian hordes. I am not defending the Nazi regime and it's henchmen. However ALL of my relatives are still in Europe and I haveinsite from the common German and Dutch viewpoints about the war"
Did I? If so I am sorry, although your statement may be wrong....unless you know more of me than I do Interesting background though, so I guess we could go through many a beer with many many stories. BTW all of my relatives and most of my wife's relatives are also in Europe, and so am I. Her grandfather was a cavalryman in WWI, her other grandfather was an engineer in the Kriegsmarine. Her grandma once booked on the Wilhelm Gustloff, but luckily never got on board. Both are alive and well today, and willingly tell me their stories. That includes bombing and being a prisoner of the Red army. From my side then, some of those I know were involved in WW2, on both sides. Since I worked and lived in Germany there was also a lot I got to know.  Not all stuff you would find in a book, nor could one live with it easily as a "Fanboi" Should we perhaps start a thread about the subject of how one relates to WW2? About friends/family etc, and how they connected with WW2, and all the twists of fate? I am game, and pretty sure there is lots to share.
Anyway, back to tanks. E25whatever: "The mechanical reliability of German armor under battlefield conditions was not up to par with the allied nations, and when they did break down, they were not as easy to repair in the field."
While this would perhaps be true in 1945, it was not so before. The British were stunned about the Panzers in N-Africa, since damaged tanks could often be fixed with bits from other tanks in the field, - that not necessarily the same model. Meanwhile, the British had a complete logistics nightmare with their own gear, - too many sorts and types and sub-types etc. But they learned from this, and the lesson was about complete in 1944 or so.
Here:
"There is no claim it makes them "failures" or "bad tanks."  Not sure why all the defensiveness over the subject."
Exactly. and in AH even more markedly.  No failing modelled.

[Die Hard]

That depends.  Do you mean to say that no other country is "perfection-minded?"

First of all I don’t think Angus needs you to answer questions for him. Secondly, no I don’t think any other nation during WWII was so perfection-minded as Germany, with the possible exception of Japan.

Are you further saying that such "perfection-minded" people are above making any mistakes?

No, where did you get that?

Let me ask you this, do you think the German army would have accepted a so deficient suspension system that it was a “nightmare” (Angus’ word) to maintain on some of their most important weapons of war from 1942 to the end of the war? Don’t you think the German army would have demanded a redesign of the suspension if it was that problematic?

Would any army of any nation have accepted a suspension system for service if it was a “nightmare” for four years and not demanded it be redesigned?

I think what Angus is trying to politely say is that you often come off as a Geman fanboi with comments such as this.

"Zee Germans vere too "perfektionminden" to haf any flawz in zeir dezeins."

That’s not what I said. My post was a response to, among others, Angus’ claim that:

The biggest issue is probably the tracks and suspension. This is where the German Panther was a nightmare.

I responded with my rather longwinded post I recited earlier in this thread. However even after being corrected by several posters in the other thread Angus continue to propagate the inaccurate myths in this thread (and who knows how many others):

It had severe maintenance and track problems. Basically an insanely cool tank, but the baby diseases were not ironed out, so in combat it had serious problems with reliability.

You would think he had learned a thing or two in the old thread, so that’s why I consider him a troll.

The mechanical reliability of German armor under battlefield conditions was not up to par with the allied nations…

Complete and utter nonsense. Read the other thread.

[Die Hard]

Anyway, DieHard, E25280 (what a name) sort of answered my question.

No he did not.

Angus, what do you mean by "this is a bit off...the real world"?

What part of this quote that you singled out from my post is "a bit off...the real world" ?

"I’m always amazed that people are so willing to believe some of these outlandish criticisms and actually believe that the German army would not have demanded a redesign of the suspension if it was that problematic. To think that the ever so perfection-minded Germans would have accepted a deficient suspension system on some of their most important weapons of war from 1942 to the end of the war is simply silly. This myth is as silly as the “one third of the 109’s were lost in landing accidents” myth."

What do you think "perfection-minded" means? Don't you think the Germans were perfection-minded?

Please answer my questions. However, I don’t think you will answer them, because you’re just trolling, and trolls like you are the reason good informative threads are closed.

and in AH even more markedly.  No failing modelled.

Try diving a Mossie or a Frank at high speed and see if the control surfaces fail. I wouldn’t be surprised if Hitech chooses to model track failures if you drove the tank too fast (downhill for example).

[Angus]

This one:
"I’m always amazed that people are so willing to believe some of these outlandish criticisms and actually believe that the German army would not have demanded a redesign of the suspension if it was that problematic. To think that the ever so perfection-minded Germans would have accepted a deficient suspension system on some of their most important weapons of war from 1942 to the end of the war is simply silly. "

The Germans designers frequently were ahead of the materials or tools or even technology available. And it was war. It was the real world...

You shout me out as a troller. What is this:
"Wikipedia is usually written by idiots who don't know better"
For one, rude.

[Die Hard]

You're still not answering my questions:

Angus, what do you mean by "this is a bit off...the real world"? Are you really  unable to articulate your meaning?

What part of this quote that you singled out from my post is "a bit off...the real world" ? Are you really unable to point out what you think is ""a bit off...the real world"?

"I’m always amazed that people are so willing to believe some of these outlandish criticisms and actually believe that the German army would not have demanded a redesign of the suspension if it was that problematic. To think that the ever so perfection-minded Germans would have accepted a deficient suspension system on some of their most important weapons of war from 1942 to the end of the war is simply silly. This myth is as silly as the “one third of the 109’s were lost in landing accidents” myth."

If you think that quote is "a bit off...the real world" the please point out the errors.

What do you think "perfection-minded" means?

Don't you think the Germans were perfection-minded?

[Die Hard]

You shout me out as a troller. What is this:
"Wikipedia is usually written by idiots who don't know better"
For one, rude.

Unless you wrote that wiki-article then I was not rude to you.

[Angus]

I answered your question. Just try to understand the answer.
The REAL world is not a perfect world. A perfection minded designer may do his stuff easily in a perfect world, but not necessarily in the real one. Many a design in WW2 had that problem. Lots of teething problem and flops, which the perfection-minded Gerries were not immune to.

Now, to something different....or not. The Panther. I was looking at the overlapping wheels, partially because of them being a part of the armour. Then I was tempted to go surfing on google and wiki (I know, completely ignorant stuff...but...) and I could not find an heir to the Panther. None of today's tanks have that system as far as my 5 minutes showed me. But WHY? It looks good, forms a part of the armour, there is a claim that it's no worse in the field than other systems, it gave s superbly smooth ride etc at the time and so on. So why did the design die? Or didn't it?

[Die Hard]

I answered your question.

First of all I asked several questions, not just one, and you haven't answered any of them.

Secondly, not once did I mention "German designers", I was talking about the German army and the German people as a whole.

So, what do you mean by "this is a bit off...the real world"? Are you really  unable to articulate your meaning?

What part of this quote that you singled out from my post is "a bit off...the real world" ? Are you really unable to point out what you think is ""a bit off...the real world"?

"I’m always amazed that people are so willing to believe some of these outlandish criticisms and actually believe that the German army would not have demanded a redesign of the suspension if it was that problematic. To think that the ever so perfection-minded Germans would have accepted a deficient suspension system on some of their most important weapons of war from 1942 to the end of the war is simply silly. This myth is as silly as the “one third of the 109’s were lost in landing accidents” myth."

If you think that quote is "a bit off...the real world" the please point out the errors.

What do you think "perfection-minded" means?

Don't you think the Germans were perfection-minded?



The Panther suffered from the same fate as most German equipment of WWII: Germany lost the war. Why would the companies of the victorious allies promote any other piece of engineering and weaponry than their own? Of course they didn't. The French were the only ones who turned down the Americans' offer of more M4 Shermans and Pershings, and rather salvaged and repaired some 50 Panthers, which they used until they could develop better tanks themselves. The Panther served with the French army into the 1950's.

[BigPlay]

Fanboi? Is that a French word ?
 

Anyway, DieHard, E25280 (what a name) sort of answered my question.
And Bigplay:
"If your referring to me as having less to do with Germans than you then you  made another mistake...... I am first generation American, both my parents were from Europe, my mother from Germany and father from Holland. My father saw the German army first hand since his country was occupied for most of WW2 and my Mother lived through the bombing and the raping Russian hordes. I am not defending the Nazi regime and it's henchmen. However ALL of my relatives are still in Europe and I haveinsite from the common German and Dutch viewpoints about the war"
Did I? If so I am sorry, although your statement may be wrong....unless you know more of me than I do Interesting background though, so I guess we could go through many a beer with many many stories. BTW all of my relatives and most of my wife's relatives are also in Europe, and so am I. Her grandfather was a cavalryman in WWI, her other grandfather was an engineer in the Kriegsmarine. Her grandma once booked on the Wilhelm Gustloff, but luckily never got on board. Both are alive and well today, and willingly tell me their stories.



You sure you don't want to edit your statement? My Grandfather (mothers) was also in WW1 and WW2, he died back in the 70's If your wifes Grandfather is still alive he would have to be in his 100's. I believe that there are 1-3 WW1 vets still alive in this country .

[Angus]

DieHard, you die...hard.
Here:
""I’m always amazed that people are so willing to believe some of these outlandish criticisms and actually believe that the German army would not have demanded a redesign of the suspension if it was that problematic. To think that the ever so perfection-minded Germans would have accepted a deficient suspension system on some of their most important weapons of war from 1942 to the end of the war is simply silly. This myth is as silly as the “one third of the 109’s were lost in landing accidents” myth."

If you think that quote is "a bit off...the real world" the please point out the errors."

It's one big error. Or would you rather have it from the E-guy:
"Zee Germans vere too "perfektionminden" to haf any flawz in zeir dezeins

In the real world of WW2, designers frequently designed things that could not be manufactured properly due to the circumstances. Is that simple enough or are you going to repeat the question?

[BigPlay]

I guess people are going to just base all their opinions on wiki and wiki alone, Even after all that information that DieHard provided their sticking with the reliability factor of German armor. I have read many fist hand books from former German tank commanders, I would consider them to have first hand knowledge of how their machines worked better than any second of third hand source. May I suggest reading Will Fey's book " panzer battles on the eastern front" or Otto Carrius's book "Tigers in the mud"or Ernst Barkmann's chapters in "SS Panzer battles at Normandy "

Not one of those or any other tank commander had any complaints with the Tiger, or Panther past the D model as far as reliability went that I have read. Otto Carrius did mention that he felt that the  Jadgtiger was a waste of Germany's resources but had nothing but praise for the Tiger. Ernst Barkmann loved the Panther and felt that it was superior to anything the allies had. I just am passing along what I have read. Now some people are still going to dispute what they said and make stupid comments like " what else do you expect a nazi to say" but with anything written about history if there are first hand accounts about any subject I consider that to be gospel over some authors opinion.


Thery had a episode on Tank Rebuilders and I know there are a few different shows but one was on restoring a Comet. These guys were actually British that were rebuilding it and many times throught the show were complaining about how poorly the thing was designed as far as maintance and repairs were concerned, once again first hand.

[BigPlay]

DieHard, you die...hard.
Here:
""I’m always amazed that people are so willing to believe some of these outlandish criticisms and actually believe that the German army would not have demanded a redesign of the suspension if it was that problematic. To think that the ever so perfection-minded Germans would have accepted a deficient suspension system on some of their most important weapons of war from 1942 to the end of the war is simply silly. This myth is as silly as the “one third of the 109’s were lost in landing accidents” myth."

If you think that quote is "a bit off...the real world" the please point out the errors."

It's one big error. Or would you rather have it from the E-guy:
"Zee Germans vere too "perfektionminden" to haf any flawz in zeir dezeins

In the real world of WW2, designers frequently designed things that could not be manufactured properly due to the circumstances. Is that simple enough or are you going to repeat the question?

The E-guy at one time had me fooled into believing he had some better than average tank warfare knowlege but as of late has become more opinion than fact. He needs to start backing his statements up with something other then wiki info.

[Angus]

I also googled. Same results, and always the same quote from Guderian. So I guess we are both outlandish and non-perfection minded, and bringing up things from google is just ... stupid and further underlines my inability to learn. Or should I say....see the light?
Anyway, seriously, since I stumbled across it, why has the Panthers superb wheel/track/suspension system of overlapping wheels not been adapted by modern tanks?

[BigPlay]

I also googled. Same results, and always the same quote from Guderian. So I guess we are both outlandish and non-perfection minded, and bringing up things from google is just ... stupid and further underlines my inability to learn. Or should I say....see the light?
Anyway, seriously, since I stumbled across it, why has the Panthers superb wheel/track/suspension system of overlapping wheels not been adapted by modern tanks?

Nobody is using WW2 allied tank suspension or wheel layout either. They are however using the independent track system that the panther was the first to employ . Guderian was a tactician not a tank commander. I heard no complaints from Rommel and he had command of the French coastal protection during Normandy. If I had my choice I'd put my money on Rommel rather then Guderian. Take it easy , I never said you had a learning disorder. Cant we just agree that we disagree, I'm not taking it personal.

[Die Hard]

It is pointless BigPlay. Angus is just trying to push your buttons; he deliberately posts inaccurate information hoping it will rile someone into an augment. Then he dances around the subject posting more inaccurate information while disregarding any attempt at correction. He avoids any direct questioning which can decide the argument because he has no answer and it is not in his interest to resolve the argument, but to keep it going. He will continue to try and agitate you until you lose your temper and do something that catch the attention of the moderators; just like in the other thread. Soon enough someone will mention how evil the Nazis or SS were and this thread will end like the other.

Angus calls it "teasing", I call it by its proper name: Trolling.

He is good at it though. I'll give him that.