Author Topic: m4a3 sherman and some others  (Read 9361 times)

Offline BigPlay

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Re: m4a3 sherman and some others
« Reply #75 on: May 08, 2009, 03:26:07 PM »
It is pointless BigPlay. Angus is just trying to push your buttons; he deliberately posts inaccurate information hoping it will rile someone into an augment. Then he dances around the subject posting more inaccurate information while disregarding any attempt at correction. He avoids any direct questioning which can decide the argument because he has no answer and it is not in his interest to resolve the argument, but to keep it going. He will continue to try and agitate you until you lose your temper and do something that catch the attention of the moderators; just like in the other thread. Soon enough someone will mention how evil the Nazis or SS were and this thread will end like the other.

Angus calls it "teasing", I call it by its proper name: Trolling.

He is good at it though. I'll give him that.



That's really the problem with posting, when you do post something in rebuttal people start piling on to incite some reaction. This as most treads are is nothing more then political banter. God forbid someone actually bringing some pertainant info to the table without it turning into a total waste of time. A big fat <S> to you for your time and knowledge in regards to this and past tank related subjects. I actually learned something from you rather then polishing up on my debating skills with the other misinformed posters.

Offline Die Hard

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Re: m4a3 sherman and some others
« Reply #76 on: May 08, 2009, 04:04:43 PM »
You too BigPlay <S!>
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline E25280

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Re: m4a3 sherman and some others
« Reply #77 on: May 08, 2009, 07:42:34 PM »
Do the two of you need some alone time? 

 :D
Brauno in a past life, followed by LTARget
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Offline E25280

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Re: m4a3 sherman and some others
« Reply #78 on: May 08, 2009, 07:53:50 PM »
The Germans never even considered repairing a wheel or maintaining the suspension on the battle field. What you seem to lack is a general understanding of the difference between German and Allied/Soviet doctrine. The Soviets, Britons and Americans designed their tanks so that a farm boy could fix them in the field, often compromising quality and weight in the process. The Germans designed their tanks to be as good as they could make them, obviously negating the “farm boy” factor, but made them so they could easily be repaired and maintained at a field shop.
On a more serious note, this is the part I don't understand.  If you admit that the Germans engineered their equipment to the extent that they could not be repaired and maintained in the field, but rather needed to be towed back to a repair depot -- then how can you object to the characterization that they were de facto more difficult to maintain in the field?

IIRC, soon after the M-16 was introduced, it was fairly well disliked because of the time and care needed to keep it clean and in proper firing condition.  This was especially true when compared to the communists' weapon of choice, the AK-47, which as the joke went, fired better when crusted in mud.

Similarly, when compared to the simpler/more rugged/"farm boy friendly" Allied tanks, the German armor was more difficult to maintain in the field. 

It would seem to be an accurate statement to me.
Brauno in a past life, followed by LTARget
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Offline Angus

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Re: m4a3 sherman and some others
« Reply #79 on: May 08, 2009, 08:25:06 PM »
BigPlay:


Nobody is using WW2 allied tank suspension or wheel layout either. They are however using the independent track system that the panther was the first to employ . Guderian was a tactician not a tank commander. I heard no complaints from Rommel and he had command of the French coastal protection during Normandy. If I had my choice I'd put my money on Rommel rather then Guderian. Take it easy , I never said you had a learning disorder. Cant we just agree that we disagree, I'm not taking it personal.

Oh. Torsion bar is the word on both the Leopard and the M1, same goes with the T-72, but the Brits have gone other ways. Now the single wheel layout seems to be the norm, while I fail to find the double system of the Panther on any post war tank of some merit.
Now, the Horstmann system, so well probed on the Centurion is still in combat use. Introduction: 1922.
Guderian now. Was he not a tank commander? Hello? Anyone there? You are talking about the master of the blitzkrieg, basically one of the architects, and he frequently operated as the leader in the campaign of the new panzer warfare. He did not earn the name "quick Heinz" for sitting behind a desk. This is also the very person who tried to persuade Hitler NOT to take a "southern swing" in the Russian campaign in 1941 due to the logistics and seasonal problems involved, - now who was right?
IMHO, discarding Guderian as a mere "Tactician" is rather wrong. Rommel was smart and IMHO in the same category, but both of them lived....in the real world. Not the perfect one.
BigPlay, a tad more:
"Take it easy , I never said you had a learning disorder. Cant we just agree that we disagree, I'm not taking it personal."
I never claimed you did. That's from DieHard. I'd rather not mix you together, for although you share your opinions, there is a difference of the approach. Nothing personal here M8, and I re-state that we probably should start a swap-story thread.
DieHard gives me the honour of being a "good" troller. In the same line he accuses me of "inaccurate information", "more inaccurate information", and "disregarding any attempt at correction". My plan is apparently to make people blow their top, and get them under the banning hammer.
I do fail to see the corrections though, but I do see unsupported claims about my wiki-ish sources being wrong. However, a quick browse does not give me much mistakes from my behalf, except the blunder of mixing up the max speeds of the Comet and the Cromwell. 40 - 32. Very close to the beginning and end of the Panther. If you can trust Wiki.....

It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Die Hard

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Re: m4a3 sherman and some others
« Reply #80 on: May 08, 2009, 10:23:17 PM »
Don't bite.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline Angus

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Re: m4a3 sherman and some others
« Reply #81 on: May 09, 2009, 06:05:07 AM »
Nibble?
Anyway, today I am particularly concerned with design flaws and teething problems, since it so happens that I operate a machine which is the first in it's production line, and riddled with little errors that tend to stop me in the field. Once all things have been learned and problems fixed, it's a fine machine.....
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline E25280

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Re: m4a3 sherman and some others
« Reply #82 on: May 09, 2009, 11:31:41 AM »
NM, not worth it.
Brauno in a past life, followed by LTARget
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: m4a3 sherman and some others
« Reply #83 on: May 09, 2009, 12:06:20 PM »
I dont think you can compare a rifle to a tank. Be that as it may the M-16 was launched as a rifle that never needed cleaning, "believe it or not". So troops either didnt clean them or cleaned them with the lousy cleaning materials issued to them. Add to that early 5.56 ammo used dirty burning, high spiking, ball powder that can really foul up a rifle. Most of all an auto-rifle with such tight tolerances....you see the problem?

And lastly, to add to the perfect storm, Army brass hated the idea of a Gee-whiz kid, space age plastic battle rifle chambered in a squirrel hunting cartridge. The brass were more then happy to set the rifle up for failure.

Once proper cleaning tools and procedures were adopted the rifle did fine. And today its the premier rifle in the field. With proper lubes you can even fire it dirty as long as you keep the contact points/bolt assembly lubed with the right stuff.Since I started using FP-10 Ive never had a problem.

On a more serious note, this is the part I don't understand.  If you admit that the Germans engineered their equipment to the extent that they could not be repaired and maintained in the field, but rather needed to be towed back to a repair depot -- then how can you object to the characterization that they were de facto more difficult to maintain in the field?

IIRC, soon after the M-16 was introduced, it was fairly well disliked because of the time and care needed to keep it clean and in proper firing condition.  This was especially true when compared to the communists' weapon of choice, the AK-47, which as the joke went, fired better when crusted in mud.

Similarly, when compared to the simpler/more rugged/"farm boy friendly" Allied tanks, the German armor was more difficult to maintain in the field. 

It would seem to be an accurate statement to me.

Anyway Im off topic. So I'll quit.
"flying the aircraft of the Red Star"

Offline Die Hard

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Re: m4a3 sherman and some others
« Reply #84 on: May 09, 2009, 06:08:47 PM »
I agree that the rifle/tank comparison is overly simplistic, but it is also outright wrong. The T-34 was by far more prone to breakdowns than the Panther and required more labor intensive maintenance. If the rifle/tank comparison had any merit the Vietnam-era AK-47 would have to jam a lot more than the M-16, but be easier to clear. This was not the case.

Again I recite from one of my posts in the other tank thread:

All tanks have teething problems that only become apparent when the tank is tested in combat, and the Panther was no different. However, generally speaking most WWII tank designs had their worst bugs fixed after about six months. Combat vehicles also tend to get bad reputations if they have particularly bad teething problems. The early M4’s suffered from engine reliability issues and that nasty ammo storage problem that more often than not killed the crew if the tank was hit. As a result the Sherman got a bad rep on both sides of the front; the Germans nicknamed it the “Tommy coocker” (Tommy being their nickname for the British), and the British called it the "Ronson" (cigarette lighter). This was based on the Ronson Company's famous slogan, "lights first time, every time." After the ammunition storage had been redesigned the bad reputation was no longer deserved, but even to this day British (and many American) WWII tankers will attest to having little or no confidence in the Sherman.

A not well known fact is that the T-34 suffered serious teething problems with its transmission and engine. Tracks would also wear out very fast and many crews carried spare tracks over the hull to provide fast repairs (but also because Soviet logistics was unable to ship them in time). In addition, many of the vital parts of the T-34 proved to be poorly manufactured: The air filters were too poor and let dust inside the engine, rapidly wearing it down. The transmission was prone to breaking down and clutches were weak. Maximum theoretical speed was rarely achievable under normal conditions, and the T-34 required a major engine overhaul after less than 100 hours of use. Things became better when a new transmission was introduced in 1943, but as I noted earlier the T-34 was easy to repair … but it needed to be. However, because the T-34 literally saved the Soviet Union from defeat in December 1941 and outclassed all German tanks in this period of the war, the T-34’s success outshines its early problems and it got a good reputation from the start.

The Panther Ausf. D really wasn’t ready for service in July 1943 when it was thrown into the cauldron of the Battle of Kursk. Engine and transmission were prone to breaking down and there were numerous other problems. This gave the Panther a bad reputation of mechanical unreliability that would stick to the vehicle for some time. Problems were experienced with blown head gaskets. As advised by Dr. Ferdinand Porsche, this was corrected by installing copper rings pressed into grooves to seal the heads of Maybach HL 230 P30 motors starting with serial number 8321466 in September 1943. Other modifications were introduced at the same time including improved coolant circulation inside the motor and a reinforced membrane spring installed in the fuel pump. In November 1943, starting with Maybach HL230 P30 motor number 8322575, the governor was already set at the factory for a maximum rpm of 2500 rpm under full load and the motors were outfitted with a hand operated temperature control on the oil cooler. Overheating was overcome by fitting a second cooling pump and modifying the cooling distribution. Later Panthers proved very much more reliable than the vehicles involved in the Kursk debacle.

Before the fixes were implemented the Panther Ausf. D had an appalling 35% operational readiness. However with the introduction of the Ausf. A two months later the op. readiness rose to 65% and by early spring 1944 it had risen to more than 80%. After the D-Day landings the Panter’s readiness level would again drop to below 50%, but that was a result of the increasingly desperate supply situation. Something as simple as a worn out air filter would ground a Panther because the spare parts simply didn’t reach the front.

Production of the Ausf. D merged into that of the Ausf. A, with many of the changes associated the Ausf. A actually introduced on late production Ausf. Ds, while others were not immediately introduced. The new cupola can be found on late Ausf Ds, while the machine gun ball mount was not present on all Ausf As until later in 1943.

The Panther may have had a rougher debut than most other tanks of its time, but with the correction of the production-related mechanical difficulties, the Panther became highly popular with German tankers and a fearsome weapon on the battlefield. While the Panther was initially intended to only equip one tank battalion per Panzer division, by June 1944 it accounted for nearly half of German tank strength on both the eastern and western fronts.
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Offline Nemisis

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Re: m4a3 sherman and some others
« Reply #85 on: May 09, 2009, 09:48:38 PM »
LoL, Die Hard, how long did it take you to write all that? But in all seriousness, I agree, you CAN NOT compare a rifle to a tank with ANY accuracy. That would be like me comparing an anti tank weapon with an aircraft, or an anti tank weapon with an infantry man' weapon or maby his training....kinda, I'm not sure if anything can match that comparison. And E25280, you say the Allied Sherman was easier to maintain, while that is true, they were also under powered, under armed, and under armored. A captured German officer once said that it would take 6 allied tanks to knock out one tiger, and a Tigers gun could knock out a Sherman at ranges the Sherman had NO hope of killing the Tiger at.
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Offline Angus

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Re: m4a3 sherman and some others
« Reply #86 on: May 10, 2009, 03:11:15 AM »
All true.
The Shermie is was more of a multi-purpose machine though (look at all the variants), it could be landed on a beach, and would drive very long on one set of tracks.
I've seen a Shermie trying to cross a steep sand ridge and it's performance there was not impressive. But it was the normal one. (narrow tracked). However, it would always just start and drive, that old one.
But an LVT, that one rocks in sand!
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Die Hard

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Re: m4a3 sherman and some others
« Reply #87 on: May 10, 2009, 10:05:34 AM »
LoL, Die Hard, how long did it take you to write all that?

This time it was mostly cut and paste, but when I originally wrote it it took... a while. ;)
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline Die Hard

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Re: m4a3 sherman and some others
« Reply #88 on: May 10, 2009, 11:00:50 AM »
Perhaps Ernst Barkmann's exploits in 1944 France are better able to convey the merits of the Panther than any statistic or comparison of numbers. His story also aptly describes how the Germans went about repairing and maintaining their tanks (I've marked these passages in bold):

In late 1943, Ernst Barkmann was promoted to the rank of SS-Unterscharfuhrer. In early 1944, the entire division was transferred to Bordeaux area in southern France for rest and refitting as a panzer division. Following the D-Day (June 6 of 1944), 2nd SS Panzer Division Das Reich was ordered to move northwards and was committed to battle.

In early July of 1944, Das Reich was moved to Saint Lo to halt the advance of the US Army's 9th and 30th Infantry Divisions and the 3rd Armored Division. On July 8th, Barkmann's Kompanie was a spearhead of Regiment's attack on the advancing American units. On this day, Ernst Barkmann knocked out his first Allied Sherman tank near St.Lo. On July 12th, he destroyed two more Shermans while disabling the third one. During that engagement Barkmann moved his camouflaged Panther to ambush position and awaited for more Allied armor, knocking out three Shermans. After that Ernst Barkmann's tank was hit by an anti-tank gun which caused a fire. He decided to evacuate his burning Panther and along with his crew he quickly put out the fire. After that engagement his Panther ended up in the workshop for repairs. After a day of rest, in morning of July 14th, Barkmann was ordered to recover four Panthers that had been cut off behind enemy lines. He succeeded in his task and added three more Shermans to his score.

On the same day at noon, Ernst Barkmann was ordered by the Regimental Commander SS-Obersturmbannfuhrer Tychsen to recover wounded German soldiers from their American captors. Once again he succeeded and in the evening his own Panther was returned to him from the workshop. On July 26th, Barkmann's Panther suffered from engine problems and was sent to the field workshop. While the mechanics were working on it, the field workshop was attacked by Allied fighter-bombers and Barkmann's Panther was hit in the engine compartment. By dawn of July 27th, his Panther was repaired but he was cut off from the rest of the Kompanie and was on his way to rejoin it.

On his way back, near the village of Le Lorey, Barkmann was stopped by retreating German infantrymen who reported that the Americans were closing in. Ernst Barkmann decided to send two of his men to verify that report. They soon returned with news of an American column made up of some 15 Shermans and other vehicles approaching. Barkmann then moved his tank up the road to the crossroad where he positioned his Panther in the surrounding oak trees, awaiting the enemy. When the American column approached, Ernst Barkmann opened fire, knocking out the two leading tanks and then a tanker truck. Two Shermans tried to go around the burning wreckage that blocked the road and one of them was knocked out followed by the other one seconds later. In response, the Americans retreated and called up tactical fighter support and Barkmann's Panther was damaged with some of the crew members wounded. Using the element of surprise two Shermans attacked wounded Panther but were also knocked out. Barkmann and his crew repaired their Panther and knocked out single Sherman while retreating. His driver managed to move their damaged Panther to safety in the nearby village of Neufbourg. During that brave engagement often called "Barkmann's Corner", Ernst Barkmann destroyed approximately nine Sherman tanks and many other vehicles.



On July 28th, Barkmann reached Coutances and joined the rest of his Kompanie. During two day period, he destroyed fifteen Shermans and several other vehicles. On July 30th, the Americans surrounded Granville but Barkmann towing one more damaged Panther was able to break out. In order to destroy their disabled Panther their crew decided to set it on fire and soon by mistake both Panthers caught fire. Both crews were forced to make their way to the German lines 7 kilometers away on foot. Barkmann reached Avranches on August 5th, and was warmly welcomed by his comrades who heard about his exploits. For his bravery and skills Ernst Barkmann was recommended for the Knight's Cross which was accepted on August 27th, and was awarded on September 5th.

SS-Oberscharfuhrer Barkmann continued his successful career and took part in the Ardennes Offensive in December of 1944, where on December 25th he was seriously wounded. During the Ardennes Offensive, Barkmann's Panther drove into a group of American tanks from the 2nd Armored Division. Quickly combat ensued and though outnumbered Barkmann managed to knock out a few Sherman tanks. One Sherman rammed Barkmann's Panther but didn't cause much damage although both tanks got stuck and Panther's engine stalled. After few minutes, Barkmann's mechanic managed to restart the engine and the Panther retreated with a jammed turret. Even with the damage, Barkmann knocked out the Sherman that was pursuing him and retreated to safety.

In March of 1945, Barkmann was once again fighting the Soviets in the area around the town of Stuhlweissenburg, where he knocked out four T-34s and brought the total score of the Das Reich Division for the war so far to 3000 enemy tanks destroyed. At the time Das Reich was exhausted by non-stop fighting and lack of replacement tanks. Barkmann's unit alone had only nine fully operational vehicles from which three were soon lost to Soviet Josef Stalin tanks. The remaining six Panthers were ordered to link up with the remnants of the Panzer Regiment of the 1st SS Panzer Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler commanded by SS-Standartenfuhrer Jochen Peiper. By April of 1945, Barkmann saw action south of Vienna during the fighting in Austria. There his Panther was accidentally hit by friendly fire and Barkmann along with his crew members were wounded. Later on his Panther was disabled in a huge bomb crater and was destroyed by its crew. Ernst Barkmann was able to reach the British zone of operations where he surrendered and was taken captive.

During his very successful career, Ernst Barkmann earned Knight's Cross for his bravery and skills along with the Panzer Assault Badge for 25 and 50 engagements with the enemy. He survived the war and lives in Kisdorf, Germany, where he for most of his postwar years served as the fire chief and also as mayor.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline Angus

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Re: m4a3 sherman and some others
« Reply #89 on: May 10, 2009, 12:06:13 PM »
Reminds one of the other guy in his Tiger at the Bocage. What was his name again..
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)