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Author Topic: m4a3 sherman and some others  (Read 9352 times)

Offline Die Hard

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Re: m4a3 sherman and some others
« Reply #150 on: May 14, 2009, 09:47:01 AM »
The strongest part was the Tiger's turret front which was protected by the mantle shield. A total of 200-210 mm. The best any WWII tank gun could hope to do against that at combat ranges would be  to disable the gun.
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Offline Angus

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Re: m4a3 sherman and some others
« Reply #151 on: May 15, 2009, 02:32:09 AM »
So, it would be the last thing to aim for. Anyway, if you want to kill a tough tank, you do well if you can disable it's mobility and then utilize that to get a better shot. Or try getting a shot into the hull to kill the crew.
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Offline Angus

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Re: m4a3 sherman and some others
« Reply #152 on: May 15, 2009, 10:07:32 AM »
One thing about the Sherman...and others. Does anyone know what the turret traverse was? I mean, how fast. I recall it to be claimed to be quite fast. And the Tiger? From some source I heard 1 minute, but that seems too slow. And the Panther?
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Charge

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Re: m4a3 sherman and some others
« Reply #153 on: May 15, 2009, 03:09:26 PM »
"From some source I heard 1 minute, but that seems too slow." I'm not sure but it may have been even slower than that. It was best to steer the whole tank to get the gun quickly to target.

-C+
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Offline Angus

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Re: m4a3 sherman and some others
« Reply #154 on: May 15, 2009, 03:45:53 PM »
That does not help if your tracks are screwed. Neither will it in a stationary position, - ambush.
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline GtoRA2

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Re: m4a3 sherman and some others
« Reply #155 on: May 15, 2009, 09:52:36 PM »
Quote from: Angus on May 15, 2009, 03:45:53 PM
That does not help if your tracks are screwed. Neither will it in a stationary position, - ambush.


I just looked it up, in a great book on the Tiger I

Germany's Tiger Tanks D.W. TO Tiger I: Design production and modifications by Thomas L Jentz and Hilary L. Doyle
http://www.amazon.com/Germanys-Tiger-Tanks-D-W-Modifications/dp/0764310380

Page 52 under traverse drive.  The fastest it could rotate was 360 degrees in a minute. 

I will see if I can find info on the Sherman.
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Offline E25280

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Re: m4a3 sherman and some others
« Reply #156 on: May 15, 2009, 11:24:09 PM »
Quote from: GtoRA2 on May 15, 2009, 09:52:36 PM
I will see if I can find info on the Sherman.
From "M4 Sherman at War":

"The minimum time required for traversing 360 degrees with either type of powered-traverse systems was 17 seconds."
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Offline GtoRA2

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Re: m4a3 sherman and some others
« Reply #157 on: May 16, 2009, 12:53:24 AM »
Quote from: E25280 on May 15, 2009, 11:24:09 PM
From "M4 Sherman at War":

"The minimum time required for traversing 360 degrees with either type of powered-traverse systems was 17 seconds."

Wow. That's a huge difference.

Thanks for finding it.
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Offline Die Hard

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Re: m4a3 sherman and some others
« Reply #158 on: May 16, 2009, 02:48:23 AM »
The Tiger's hydraulic powered turret was designed to provide very fine adjustment for long range combat. In spite of Angus' claim, a slow turret traverse is inconsequential for ambush effectiveness; indeed most purpose built tank destroyers of the day were turretless.
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Offline Angus

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Re: m4a3 sherman and some others
« Reply #159 on: May 16, 2009, 03:22:23 AM »
The normal sherman's tactics against a tiger actually utilized this. If they could de-track it they would try and approach from many sides. Dangerous game none the less.
Wonder about the Panther. Ans as well, since I never drove a tank (Just bulldozers and excavators) how the control is. I mean, only one setting or what?
Today, speed of turret traverse is regarded as important. The new British Challenger does the round in 9 seconds..
BTW, tank destroyers. That would be something for AH perhaps.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 03:24:01 AM by Angus »
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Charge

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Re: m4a3 sherman and some others
« Reply #160 on: May 16, 2009, 07:18:07 AM »
Tactically surrounding a tank is risky business also because of supporting infantry, not just other tanks.

Back in those days when you had the most armour in front the best option was always to turn you front in general direction of enemy. In modern tanks with reactive armour and facing AT weapons with incredible power it is not that important, but to utilize the speed and mobility where a fast turret comes very handy.

The doctrines were actually quite practical. For fast attack purpose the tank needs to be relatively light and fast with good cross-country capabilities where fast turret speed helps (especailly if the terrain provides lot of cover) and for defensive tactics a heavy and slow tank with big gun is OK. Of course in open terrain a big tank may fare better since it can endure more battering before getting disabled.

And de-tracking does not disable the tank's ability to turn unless both sides are de-tracked. It just disables its ability to move to a tactically better place which is already a huge handicap.

-C+

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Offline Angus

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Re: m4a3 sherman and some others
« Reply #161 on: May 16, 2009, 06:18:30 PM »
Pahh.
A de-tracked tank will only turn it's hull in ONE direction as long as it CAN. And in such a position a slow-turning turret is NO advantage. Getting hit means that somebody already got an aim on you.
In the case of facing the Firefly, German armour had to cope with one of Murphy's finest rules of combat. If the enemy is in range, so are you.  :t
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Die Hard

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Re: m4a3 sherman and some others
« Reply #162 on: May 16, 2009, 07:54:41 PM »
Quote from: Angus on May 16, 2009, 06:18:30 PM
Pahh.
A de-tracked tank will only turn it's hull in ONE direction as long as it CAN.

What kind of warped logic is that?  :huh  Why only one direction?
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Offline Angus

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Re: m4a3 sherman and some others
« Reply #163 on: May 17, 2009, 05:27:56 AM »
That is left OR right. Try that for a few circles on a soft ground and see what happens.
(Sometimes being a farmboy allows you to see things)
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Die Hard

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Re: m4a3 sherman and some others
« Reply #164 on: May 17, 2009, 08:28:06 AM »
Apparently being a farm boy allows you to see things a tanker can't; if your right track is disabled you turn the tank to face the enemy by rotating the left track forward if you want to turn right, and reverse the left track if you want to turn left. The the disabled right track or bogies are the pivot point.
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It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi
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