Author Topic: Russian Hurricanes  (Read 944 times)

Offline Tilt

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« on: August 17, 2001, 04:19:00 AM »
As over three and a half thousand Hurries ended up in Russia and most had a weapons up grade to (usually) 2 x 20mm Shvaks plus 2 x 12.5 mm Berizins...............

Plus a thicker armour for the pilots seat...

How about adding this load out option to the list?????

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Offline Buzzbait

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« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2001, 07:50:00 PM »
S!

Actually 2952 Hurricanes... But that`s a lot, considering the Lagg-3 only had around 3,000 produced.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2001, 10:47:00 PM »
They hated them, russian pilots said only good thing about the hurricane was its radio.

Offline leonid

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« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2001, 12:23:00 AM »
Yeah, most of the Hurricanes sent to the Soviet Union were used.  Recently, a New Zealand test pilot commented on the fact that one had more of a chance in an I-16, than a Hurricane.  This conclusion surprised even this pilot after flying both.
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Offline Tilt

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« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2001, 08:51:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Buzzbait:
S!

Actually 2952 Hurricanes... But that`s a lot, considering the Lagg-3 only had around 3,000 produced.

Plant No 31 produced 2,550 Lagg 3 's alone total lagg 3's upto end of 43 was at least 6,528 which included  3 Klimov engine variants.

Grunherz is right about popularity the only plane liked less by the VVS was the SpitV's they were also given.

I have one autobiography where the pilot was so dissappointed that he wanted his old Lagg 3 back and was later happy to replace his Hurri with a Lagg3.

The Hurri was ouclassed by the 109E and totally unsuitable for combat with the F and early G variants the Russians had to contend with.

However comparing the actual quantitiies of VVS Hurris to true Mk C's & D's the VVS armament load out was much more common in daily combat across the conflict.

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Offline Dmitry

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« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2001, 05:26:00 PM »
great... 3000 is big number.... lets have them  :)

Offline Buzzbait

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« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2001, 10:42:00 PM »
S! Grunherz

Here we are butting heads again...  ;)

I assume people are referring the Soviet Ace Igor Kaberov's autobiography, “Swastika in the Gunsight”, by Igor Kaberov, a autobiography of a Soviet Naval Pilot who flew in the Leningrad area during 1941-1942.  His Squadron was equipped with Hurricanes at one stage.  Kaberov writes in the manner of a good party member, (he makes much in the autobiography, of the moment when he was first granted membership)  so he is quick to comment on the shortcomings of the foreign built aircraft.  That would be a given, especially in a biography published when the Communist party was still in power:

“…the name ‘Hurricane’ hardly matched the technical qualities of the machine.  The armament on it was now good – two 20mm cannons and two heavy calibre machine guns.  One burst and pieces would fly off any aircraft.  The armour plating, (taken from our Lagg) was fine…  The horizon indicator was also a wonderful instrument.  It was easy to fly in the clouds with it.  The radio worked magnificently, like a domestic telephone:  neither noise nor crackle.  But the speed, the speed…  No, this aircraft was far from being a hurricane.”

Kaberov had misgivings about the ability of the Hurricane to take on the 109’s.  But after a series of fights:

“…it was possible to fight Me109’s with it.  And with Junkers, even more so.  The cannons made a lot of difference!  In a fight with a Messerschmidt, I scored with them – it decided the outcome of the battle.”

When his Squadron finally gave up the Hurricanes he calculated the Kills and Losses which they had inflicted and suffered when equipped with the British Aircraft:

 “It turned out that during that time sixty-eight fighters and bombers had been destroyed by us.  At the same time, we had lost eleven of our pilots and fourteen machines.”

Even taking into account the overclaiming which all fighter pilots indulge in, (the fighter pilots of all nations overclaim by a factor of at least 50% according to a statistical study) it would seem the Hurricanes with his Squadron were successful.

The Hurricane was the second most common Lendlease variant sent to the Soviet Union, after the P-39.  2,952 Hurricanes were sent.  Most were sent in 1941-43.  During the early part of the war it was more common than the P-39 or P-40.  When compared to the Total production of some Soviet aircraft types, 2952 is not a small number.    There were only 3322 Mig-3 fighters produced.  (I was mistaken in my first post, confused the Mig-3 figures with the Lagg-3 numbers) (Note this Mig-3 figues do not count the small number of I-230 variants produced)

It is certainly true the Hurricane suffered when used on the Eastern Front.  The Merlin XX engine which powered the Hurricane normally ran on 100 octane Aviation gasoline which was not available.  Only 95 octane Soviet gas was used.  Additonally, the Soviets did not use the WEP on the Hurricane.  They removed this boost possibility, and ran as their maximum, Combat Power.  As a result the Soviet Hurricanes likely ran lower boost and had less power.   However it seem the aircraft was still reasonably combat worthy.  Soviet Hurricanes were re-equipped with 2 Shvak 20mm cannon and 2 12.7mm Machine guns, making them the most heavily armed Soviet aircraft on the front at the time.  And its wing loading would be superior to any comparable German aircraft.

The Spitfire V and IX were also supplied to the Soviet Union in quite large numbers.  Close to 1500 Spifires arrived between 1943 and 1944.  These aircraft were equipped with Merlin engines with 2 stage superchargers, and had problems with the Soviet aviation fuel too, nesessitating running at lower boost and no WEP.

As far as the Hurricane being completely outclassed by the Me109E:

The Hurricane was far and away the most numerous aircraft on the British side during the Battle of Britain, and shot down more aircraft than the Spitfires.

Many German pilots had Spitfires on the brain, and generally identified all British fighters as 'Spitfires'.

There was in fact a kind of 'Spitfire Snobbery'.

Peter Townsend, one of the highest scoring British Aces wrote in his autobiography of an incident when he was flying a Hurricane I during the BOB, and shot down an Me109E.  He noted where the plane crashed, landed, and took a vehicle out to the crash site.  The German pilot was ok, minor scrapes and bruises.  Townsend introduced himself as the victorious pilot, and mentioned he was flying a Hurricane.  The German pilot then refused to shake his hand, and insisted he had been shot down by a 'Spitfire'.    ;)

Offline Buzzbait

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« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2001, 11:08:00 PM »
S!

By the way:

I'm not saying a Hurricane is a better plane than a Me109F or even a Me109E.  It was definitely inferior to a well flown F, and slightly inferior to the E model.

Just that it wasn't as 'bad' a plane as some suggest.

Offline Buzzbait

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« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2001, 11:18:00 PM »
S!

Oops another mistake in the above post...

It was Robert Stanford Tuck, not Peter Townsend.

Offline Tilt

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« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2001, 05:02:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Buzzbait:
S! Grunherz

 ;)

I have to agree Kaberov was certainly a "child of his time" and extremely patriotic. His love of Mother Russia was only matched by his hatred of the "Nazi Fascists"

I too was surprised to read that he would consider the Hurricane to be the inferrior in terms of speed and handling  of the Lagg 3 (otherwise known in the VVS as the "Guaranteed varnished coffin"). he himself compared the Lagg-3 with the Yak 1 and thought the Yak 1 superior. (which gives us a balance on the Yak 1 to Hurri comparison)

I was aware of the octane difference but not that the VVS further de rated the engine WEP. I wonder why as with the lower octane fuel over heating should not have been a problem.

Kaberov was much decorated and I too think he counted kills not normally credited to pilots. Certainly he used "fractional credits" in a way not typical of the VVS later than 41. Other texts I have credit him with 16 not 27 kills.

But then of course he was not of the VVS and the KBF were short of live heros by the end of the GPW.

I have spoken with the translator who wrote the English edition (He met Kaberov thru the twining of Watford with Novgorod which was Kaberovs adopted home town [actually his wifes origin]) Kaberov has since died and any profits from the book go to his family.

Actually Kaberovs memoirs continue throughout the war years whilst he was a trainer flying/teaching (I believe) La5's. He (the translator) had little interest in translating the the years after those of the book. He was much more interested in man than machine and so some of my enquiries were falling on "stony ground".

I did not pick up from the book that his judgement of the Hurricane was prejudiced by its origin.

His squadron was not fully equipped with Hurricanes they had at least 1 Yak for the period concerned and some Laggs as well.

By Junkers I always assumed he meant Ju88's which seem to operate unescorted in the Leningrad area. I found his account of his game of "chicken" with a 190 some what unbelievable and yet we have several reports from the LW during 41/42 of 109's retiring from combat due to the totally suicidal tactics of their VVS opponents.

If we believe the level of patriotic ferver instilled in him we see more clearly how the Germans became demoralised by an opponent who would die in his thousands to take revenge upon the invader. A truely unstoppable force.

I do not dispute the Hurries role in BOB. Further in most one to one conflicts it is man rather than plane that makes the difference. However statistically I think the Hurri did not come out on top in fighter v fighter stats verses the 109.... much as you say.

Back on subject however........

The Mk IID was by all accounts a cumbersome beast and the MkIIC certainly felt the weight of its 4 cannon. I would suggest that the VVS armament would make a viable third alternative as a weapon load out and if AH FM performance was no better than the C & D models then surely it was using the lower octane fuel?????  ;)

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Offline -aper-

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« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2001, 06:04:00 AM »
That's very interesting topic.

We must take into account that in 1941 the VVS squads equipped with I-16s appeared to be more effective and fought with less losses compared to squads equipped with new LaGGs, MiGs and Yaks.
Not only because the Russian pilots knew I-16s better, but because the I-16 provided more chances to survive in fights with tactical disadvantage (lower alt, outnumbered etc).
From that point of view Hurricanes were also a good defencive fighters with good horizontal manouverability and excellent firepower (2x20mm and 2x12,7mm). From the other hand with rather low max speed and poor diving abilities Hurricanes had very little chances to catch Me-109s.

Offline SKurj

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« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2001, 01:43:00 PM »
Didn't the Hurri roll faster than the spit? and at higher speeds?

SKurj

Offline leonid

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« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2001, 04:23:00 PM »
Using Oleg's FM of the LaGG-3, it was a very nice fighter.  While it was not able to match the 109 in pure energy, nor faster in top speed, the LaGG-3 was quite maneuverable in the horizontal and vertical planes, gentle in stalls, and tough.  It was the MiG-3 that was a real pig.  Though capable of high altitude performance, it was slow to accelerate, poor in maneuverability on either plane, and had a vicious stall.  I can see why Kaberov became so enamoured with the LaGG-3.  It's like an underpowered La-5FN, which makes sense since both aircraft had the very same airframe.

[ 08-20-2001: Message edited by: leonid ]
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Offline leonid

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« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2001, 04:27:00 PM »
Btw, hi aper!  Kak dela?  I haven't seen a post from you in quite some time.  When you have the time, please email me at guerrero@oz.net  :)
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