Author Topic: F-15 v. F-16 pilot view  (Read 1950 times)

Offline Mace2004

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Re: F-15 v. F-16 pilot view
« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2009, 04:44:37 PM »
U think thes pilots WHINE about HOs?    i dont think they do.
No, they do not, shots in the face are completely normal and expected as long as they are done safely.  What is a legitimate complaint is "boresighting".  This is any time another airplane puts his nose on another and keeps it there (for instance while trying to get a Sidewinder tone).  Boresighting can occur regardless of the attitude from which they approach.  It can be head-on or more usually when one plane is fast and the other slow such as at the top of a loop.  The fast one boresights and the slow one cannot maneuver out of the way.  It's extremely dangerous and we lost two F14's on my last tour when one of our younger guys did it.  Here's what remained of his plane:

After a pass he extended up (about 30deg above the horizon) and reversed on the other F-14 which had turned low.  This plane boresighted the other from above and ripped his wing right through the other's fuselage.  The other plane came apart (pilot and rio ejected safely with minor burns).  This one recovered from a high-speed spiral after ripping it's wing off and diverted into Pylabar Airbase in Singapore.  It never flew again as the fuselage wingbox was bent.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 06:36:04 PM by Mace2004 »
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: F-15 v. F-16 pilot view
« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2009, 04:52:02 PM »
incredible that it could recover then land with so much of the wing missing (speaking from cartoon experience :uhoh)
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Offline Buzzard7

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Re: F-15 v. F-16 pilot view
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2009, 06:42:19 PM »
Is it just me or is it really an f-15 doing the filming in the first vid? As the camera lookss back over the right wing thats an f-16 wing and the other aircraft they are chasing is an f-16. The one filming is either a B model or D model with two seats. F-15's do not have wingtip rails for missles.

Offline ScottyK

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Re: F-15 v. F-16 pilot view
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2009, 06:48:43 PM »
could be an E model   and possibly be the top of the right verticle stablizer     
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Offline Mace2004

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Re: F-15 v. F-16 pilot view
« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2009, 06:59:07 PM »
It's an F15.  F16 does not have a forward canopy bow and the seats are not reclined enough.  There are only a couple of views of wingtips and one good shot of top of one of the vertical stabs.  The LAU7 rails on an F16's wingtips are much larger than what you can see in the video but the F15 has small antennas for the RAW gear at the tips of the stabs and wings.  These antennas are what you catch glimpses of, not a LAU7
« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 07:01:06 PM by Mace2004 »
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Offline sntslilhlpr6601

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Re: F-15 v. F-16 pilot view
« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2009, 07:27:31 PM »
incredible that it could recover then land with so much of the wing missing (speaking from cartoon experience :uhoh)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LveSc8Lp0ZE

Almost the same situation with f15s.

Offline Mustaine

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Re: F-15 v. F-16 pilot view
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2009, 11:55:43 PM »
Ok, here's my question on the first vid, the rolling scissors:

over the top of one, and I am probably wrong here because I suck at ACM, but don't you pull up until almost stall? If so, I thought I read an F16 can hit the afterburners and climb straight up to above 50,000. That would mean it has enough power to not stall over the top like we do in AH. Why then doesn't he power up more, get above, and then come back down in a better position? He already was on top if I followed that and had the advantage didn't he?
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Offline eagl

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Re: F-15 v. F-16 pilot view
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2009, 12:08:50 AM »
Ok, here's my question on the first vid, the rolling scissors:

over the top of one, and I am probably wrong here because I suck at ACM, but don't you pull up until almost stall? If so, I thought I read an F16 can hit the afterburners and climb straight up to above 50,000. That would mean it has enough power to not stall over the top like we do in AH. Why then doesn't he power up more, get above, and then come back down in a better position? He already was on top if I followed that and had the advantage didn't he?


F-16's can't climb vert to 50,000 ft.  In a dogfight you are always trading energy for nose position.  The winner is the guy who cashes in his energy for nose position in such a way as to achieve a position where he can employ weapons.  If he misses his opportunities or blows all his energy and doesn't get a shot out of it, then he loses.  If you just zoom for the moon trying to gain a positional or energy advantage, your opponent might just cash in all his energy and shoot you.  It's no different than a zeke removing the elevator from a tiffie who just blew past and who is zooming away...  It's hard to outclimb well-aimed 20mm.

There are some pilots who can't explain the theory very well who are quite successful in actual combat, and some who fully understand the theory but who can't think fast enough, aren't aggressive enough, or who don't have the physical characteristics they need, so they suck in actual combat situations.  The trick is being just good enough at both that you won't be suprised by either a natural pilot who's dumb as a brick, or by a brainiac who can't pull G's or who can't fly very well.

I wish we could take vid cameras in the T-6, because we do that sort of thing a lot around here.  We don't go for weapons employment because the T-6 doesn't have weapons and that's not part of the syllabus, but we do teach aggressive 3-dimensional maneuvering relative to another maneuvering aircraft and of course the instructors have to push it up a bit to maintain our skills...  True rolling scissors aren't exactly what we look for but we will maneuver up to the point where a position of advantage is lost before we call knock it off in accordance with our training rules.

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Offline Mace2004

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Re: F-15 v. F-16 pilot view
« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2009, 01:01:18 AM »
Ok, here's my question on the first vid, the rolling scissors:

over the top of one, and I am probably wrong here because I suck at ACM, but don't you pull up until almost stall? If so, I thought I read an F16 can hit the afterburners and climb straight up to above 50,000. That would mean it has enough power to not stall over the top like we do in AH. Why then doesn't he power up more, get above, and then come back down in a better position? He already was on top if I followed that and had the advantage didn't he?

Nope, you should not be almost stalled over the top in a rolling scissors.  You will certainly be slower over the top than coming across the bottom but being at or near a stall means you're hardly turning the plane at all and can have very limited controlability.  As eagl mentions, trying to zoom can give your opponent time to get his nose around and he'll just follow you up and energy doesn't mean squat unless you can transform it into an offensive position and kill shot.

While obviously not a factor in AH but relevant to this video, modern fighters have missiles...you may be outside of guns range but that puts you in a missile envelope and you aren't going to outzoom a missile so you must be bringing your nose back down before your opponent can get his nose pointed at you for a missile shot.  You can't just "loiter" around above a guy like you can in AH because all he has to do it point at you to get a shot off.  A lower altitude, lower e fighter can simply use his ability to point to force his opponent to come down or turn.

To park yourself on top near a stall is sometimes referred to as a "flare shot"...basically you're just hanging out while spewing out a ton of heat for an IR missile to guide on yet can't maneuver to avoid it if one is fired.  Much more so than with guns-only fighters, with AAM's you must closely monitor your opponent's nose position during the entire fight, even when you have significant separation (out to beyond visual range), and always preserve sufficient e to maneuver. 

When it comes to ACM, the biggest advantage that modern afterburning jet engines give you in a dogfight isn't the show-stopping ability to climb like a rocket, it's the ability to sustain E even while performing almost continuous high G maneuvers.  The fundamentals of position, angles and energy remain exactly the same as they are in AH, they're just applied differently taking into account the capabilities of modern technology.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2009, 01:08:08 AM by Mace2004 »
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Offline Buzzard7

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Re: F-15 v. F-16 pilot view
« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2009, 01:58:55 AM »
Yep looked at it again that is the top right tail on probably an E model. I didn't notice the forward canopy bow the first time.

Offline JunkyII

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Re: F-15 v. F-16 pilot view
« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2009, 06:09:50 AM »
I was in the field this past week and saw F18s doing some type of training, from what it looked like they were doing Yo Yos to cut corners on the lead plane. Also saw A10s doing some cool scissors :salute
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Offline eagl

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Re: F-15 v. F-16 pilot view
« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2009, 09:38:00 AM »
Yep looked at it again that is the top right tail on probably an E model. I didn't notice the forward canopy bow the first time.

I'm fairly sure it's an F-15D or B.  An E wouldn't have been able to hang with the F-16 as long due to so much extra drag and weight.
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Offline crazyivan

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Re: F-15 v. F-16 pilot view
« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2009, 06:49:47 PM »
While flying do they eat cheesy fries, feed/take out their dogs on autopilot, go to forums and post, talk cheet to the enemy on a multi country channel, take a dump, pee off the balcony, google sheepish beauties, and squealch annoying squaddies?  Well then, I guess we cartoon pilots are just like real fighter pilots.  :D
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Offline crazyivan

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Re: F-15 v. F-16 pilot view
« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2009, 06:51:16 PM »
I was in the field this past week and saw F18s doing some type of training, from what it looked like they were doing Yo Yos to cut corners on the lead plane. Also saw A10s doing some cool scissors :salute
lol yeah, those a10s have a sound to them.
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