Author Topic: Question for pilots  (Read 557 times)

Offline AKHog

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Question for pilots
« on: April 24, 2009, 02:22:06 PM »
Has anyone attended one of the accelerated flight programs?

I'm about half way through my CFI rating and am running into scheduling problems. My instructor is gone for 3 weeks and when he gets back the airport will close for 2 months. I'd like to finish this rating sooner as I feel I'm current now and would have to spend more money to just get back to this level again in 3 months.

So I'm considering these types of accelerated schools. Can anyone give me some feedback from one? My main concern is finding one that will work with my current experience and not make me refly the whole course. Also with my budget I need either very cheap accommodations or easy camping close by. Can anyone give me any personal recommendations?
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Offline Twincam

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Re: Question for pilots
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2009, 07:12:26 PM »
First are you over or under 250 hours of total flight hours under your belt ?  and are you Just working on getting your CFI orCFII ?
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Offline AKHog

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Re: Question for pilots
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2009, 07:35:15 PM »
I have about 245 hours, commercial and instrument. Right now I'm just looking at a CFI. I have 100 hours in the right seat and 10 recent hours training for the CFI check ride.

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Offline Golfer

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Re: Question for pilots
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2009, 09:07:11 PM »
The time in the right/left seat doesn't really matter.  What does matter is teaching, confidence, knowledge of the FOI and a good set of lesson plans when getting your initial CFI.  I was in your shoes when looking to finish my instructor ratings a number of years ago.  I had 800 hours, a full time job flying traffic reports and was living on a student loan so I was flying IFR everywhere in a Mooney.  The only instructor who was qualified to teach initial CFIs at the FBO I was working at wasn't someone I got along with.  I signed up for a 2 week CFI/CFII/MEI course (it actually went MEI/CFII/CFI) through ATPs and went out to Vegas.  $7000 and 14 days later I had my ratings and didn't learn a thing.  I since put a few students through their CFI checkrides using the inadequacies I learned I had as a starting point to helping them excel but more importantly the students they'd be teaching.

I left Vegas with one lesson plan for a Vmc demo, rote knowledge of a Piper Seminole and a realization that there are some major aviation dorks out there.  I also had more actual instrument time in my logbook than the rest of the class combined.  I was also the only one not focused on going to the airlines as soon as I could.  The whole course was centered around a booklet you filled out ahead of time which was what the 2 examiners (Santa Claus and St. Nicholas...) used as their plans of action.  If you were going to take your checkride with a fed from the FSDO you received some genuine instruction while the rest of us sent to sit on Santa's lap were trained to the checkride to the point we knew what jokes they were going to tell to help us lighten up.

Having been there, paid the fee and got the (3) tshirts I wouldn't recommend them if you're looking to learn anything.  Their knowledge pool dilutes with each passing class and their only focus is passing the checkride.  Actually not so much passing as not doing anything obvious for the examiner to fail you.  Of the 12 students 11 passed their initial CFIs on the first try.  The kid who didn't had a terrible case of checkride-itis and we spent the day after chair flying getting him confident in what he needed to do.  Mind you this was me and not the staff of the location.

My advice:

Find a CFI local to you who isn't focused on moving up to the airlines.  Someone who knows instruction, has confidence instructing and will give you the knowledge you're going to need to not only be successful but also maintain a good attitude with your students.  Pay them to finish your ratings properly and don't worry about going to a rating mill to get your ratings.  From the day after I passed my private checkride my instructor (prepared me for my Instrument, Multi and Commercial ratings) and I were focusing on eventually having me prepared to be a CFI.  While he would be unable to sign me off when I was ready I would have been endorsed by a qualified CFI for my initial.  He went to an airline job which prevented me from finishing with him and with the regional hiring boom starting really to take off then it was hard to find someone to stick with.

My best preparation was simply sitting on my hands talking my instructors hands through what we needed to do.  It's not as easy as it sounds and he would take my instructions literally which resulted in the airplane put into all sorts of unusal attitudes requiring me to really dumb-down my instructions to the levels they needed to be for a new student.  In my case I felt I was prepared for my ratings but was coming short of money and scheduling time when push came to shove.  I got what I wanted from ATPs, my tickets.  I didn't get what I needed, knowledge/experience.  FWIW it took 3.75 years to pay off the loan.  Sallie Mae isn't crazy about giving loans for that these days either.

Offline AKHog

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Re: Question for pilots
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2009, 09:45:27 PM »
Thanks for the reply Golfer.

I already have what you suggest, a good local CFI that isn't interested in running off to the airlines any time soon. I've only flown with him a few times working towards my CFI, but I really like the way he teaches and am learning a lot.

Unfortunately between his personal schedule and the local airport closing I won't be able to continue flying with him for about 3 months.

This is why I'm trying to decide if I should just stay current until August and finish it with him then, or run down to one of the accelerated flight schools and finish this off now. There is no real rush to get this rating, so I'm leaning towards waiting even if it means backtracking some in August.

BTW I had Sallie Mae loans for my instrument and commercial ratings and won't ever do that again. They upped my interest to almost 10% with little warning once I was done with the schooling. I got those paid off and this time around I'm floating it all on a zero percent credit card. If I can't get it paid off by the time the interest increases (one year) I'll hopefully transfer the balance to another zero percent card.
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Offline Golfer

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Re: Question for pilots
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2009, 10:42:50 PM »
That's a very risky thing to do especially in this banking market.  I personally wouldn't but if it's what you have to do...

Where is your "local airport" and why's that completely blow you out of the water while they're I'm guessing resurfacing the runway?  Surely where you rent from has a contingency to remote base or reposition their airplanes elsewhere so they can generate revenue.  If it has one will the taxiway be open to use for operations?  Why does this one CFI going on vacation completely shaft you?  You can still continue to train for your initial CFI with any ordinary instructor even if they're not giving you the practical test endorsement.  Train with an alternate instructor, see a different method, share the cockpit with a different personality and when you're ready your original guy will give you the final 3 hours of training and your endorsement.  Your best option might be asking your current instructor to recommend someone as a supplement while he's away.  It's never a bad thing to fly with someone else to see their techniques.  Take what you like and put it in your bag of tricks while leaving what you don't like.

I went to American Flyers to finish my instrument rating (CFI went to the airlines as I mentioned) and while their product was better than ATPs they were overpriced to the tune of twice as expensive back in 2002-2003.  I'd be curious to see their actual price list now.  I'm sure you can find not only a more economical option but one which will serve your experience better in the long run.

Offline Casca

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Re: Question for pilots
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2009, 09:27:34 AM »
If you are commercial instrument with 245TT I'm assuming you went Part 141?  If that is the case there must be some reason you can't complete the CFI at that school?

In general terms I agree with golfer; the "accelerated" programs teach the test and you won't give you a very thorough grounding.  Far better to work with a quality instructor.

In general terms it is not a great time in terms of aviation employment right now but it is cyclical and will come back.  The good news is that you can always, always find work if you are a competent CFI.  You won't get rich but the real value is that someone is now paying you to be in the airplane.  In many ways being a CFI is the most important job in aviation.  Students are going to take the habits you teach them through the rest of their aviation careers.

Back in the day the CFI was almost a "gimme";  learn the FOI and do it from the right seat, but we didn't have to go to the feds for the initial back then.  I got mine as an add-on (was already a CFIG) from a designee in Aberdeen, South Dakota.  Turned up for the ride and they guy was wearing a bird hunting vest drenched in blood and had a small trickle of Skoal leaking out of the left corner of his mouth.  I had dressed in slacks, sport jacket and tie.  I informed him that I had brought along an intercom to "facilitate our communications".  He looked at me like I was a booger on the end of his finger and blandly stated: "I don't want to use that spaceman bu*****it".  It was a snooze.  You are not going to be as fortunate.

I would find a Gold Seal instructor you respect and finish it up with him/her, you will wind up with a much better grounding.  Also, as Golfer mentioned, lesson plans are very important.  Get a three ring binder, start working on a set and make 'em purty.  Those, and the aircraft, need to be standing tall when you show up for the ride.

Best of luck.
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Offline AKHog

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Re: Question for pilots
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2009, 11:38:14 AM »
Quote from: Golfer
That's a very risky thing to do especially in this banking market.  I personally wouldn't but if it's what you have to do...

I know its risky, but I'm not sure what else to do. With a Sally Mae type loan I'm guaranteed to pay interest, probably around 10% or more. With this I'm guaranteed zero interest for at least the first year. If anyone has better ideas I'm all ears.

Quote from: Golfer
Where is your "local airport" and why's that completely blow you out of the water while they're I'm guessing resurfacing the runway?....Why does this one CFI going on vacation completely shaft you?

My instructor is leaving for 3 weeks in May, then the airport shuts completely down for 2 months starting June 1st (for resurfacing and expansion). There is only one other instructor and she is part time with only enough time to finish her PPL students before the closing. The FBO is taking one plane to anther local airport for training during the closure but its just a regular 172. According to my instructor I'm more than proficient in that, and need to spend the final few hours preparing for the test in the plane I'll actually be testing in, which of course is a 172 RG that won't be available during the closure.

I have nothing against flying with another instructor or even a completely different FBO. However where I live (western Wyoming) there are simply no other local options. Going to another FBO to finish means a 2.5 hour drive each way at best. I was thinking about booking block time with the next closest FBO and just going and camping at the airport for a few days, which was my thought process that lead me to start considering the accelerated courses that are set up to do exactly that.

Quote from: Casca
If you are commercial instrument with 245TT I'm assuming you went Part 141?  If that is the case there must be some reason you can't complete the CFI at that school?

Yep, part 141 through commercial at a school in Arizona, but now I live in Wyoming.

Quote from: Casca
The good news is that you can always, always find work if you are a competent CFI.

Thats not really true. Well I guess it is if you are willing to move half way across the country, but I'm not in a position to move any time soon (like it too much here, wife's got a great job, etc). Locally there hasn't been a new instructor hired in more than 2 years. So there is no rush to get this rating. However I feel if I had the rating I'd have different opportunities present themselves (LOTS of rich guys that own planes live around here).

Quote from: Casca
Also, as Golfer mentioned, lesson plans are very important.  Get a three ring binder, start working on a set and make 'em purty.

Yep I've already started, got a 3 ring and about 4-5 lesson plans. I was spending a few hours putting together a lesson plan and then 'teaching' it to my instructor in ground, then we'd go fly parts of that lesson. My instructor told me the check pilot would ask for 2 or 3 lessons the day before the test and I'd expect to have those planned out. You guys seem to think I need a full set of lesson plans, which I understand I'll eventually need to instruct but I figure I'd make them as I go. Do I need a full set to show up to the check ride? Is he going to ask to see everything I have, or just expect me to teach what he asked for?



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Offline Golfer

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Re: Question for pilots
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2009, 12:03:43 PM »
That's bogus.  I took my Instrument checkride in a tail number I'd never touched using a GPS I didn't know that well because the original was grounded the day before for Mx issues.

You don't need to do the whole commercial checkride in a complex airplane either.  I did one hop around the patch with the examiner in a Lance 15 minutes before it went in for paint and finished in a regular 172.

You can do the maneuvers in any kind of airplane by now and airplanes as similar as the 172/172RG shouldn't pose any issue.  Sure checkride prep and the tests themselves should allow the candidate priority in scheduling but not doing a test because of the specific tail number you want isn't available.

Offline AKHog

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Re: Question for pilots
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2009, 12:39:01 PM »
That's bogus.

Sorry Golfer I didn't do a good job of explaining the situation clearly.

I have no problem flying the regular 172 and moving over to the RG the day of the test, I feel comfortable in both aircraft. Its just that the RG will simply not be available at all after May for taking the test.

Update: I talked to the other instructor and it will be possible to get at least 3 good weeks of flying done in May before the airport closes. I'm going to study my bellybutton off and try to take the 2 written tests in a week. Then hope for good weather and try to be ready for the flight test by the end of the month.

Anyone find any specific test prep material for the FOI and instructors written that I should check out? I'm thinking of trying the dauntless-soft.com prep unless someone has something else to recommend.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2009, 01:56:12 PM by AKHog »
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Offline Twincam

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Re: Question for pilots
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2009, 11:58:20 AM »
Well looks like you might have gotten all the answers from golfer and i agree with him 100%,good luck.
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Offline Golfer

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Re: Question for pilots
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2009, 01:15:41 PM »
Yep I've already started, got a 3 ring and about 4-5 lesson plans. I was spending a few hours putting together a lesson plan and then 'teaching' it to my instructor in ground, then we'd go fly parts of that lesson. My instructor told me the check pilot would ask for 2 or 3 lessons the day before the test and I'd expect to have those planned out. You guys seem to think I need a full set of lesson plans, which I understand I'll eventually need to instruct but I figure I'd make them as I go. Do I need a full set to show up to the check ride? Is he going to ask to see everything I have, or just expect me to teach what he asked for?

In theory you shouldn't need anything more than the FAA materials.  The Instructors handbook (actually a good publication) the airplane flying handbook, instrument flying handbook, copies of the various PTS' and youer certificates.  In reality for the checkride the more prepared you are with the materials you intend on using for your actual teaching the better.  If for nothing else than he'll make a mental note that you are a prepared applicant and award mental points as appropriate.  Just like you wouldn't have a plan for a student you will have a plan for your checkride.  When speaking with the examiner or inspector (FAA Inspector = No DPE Fees) when scheduling your practical test they should let you know what to expect and what they want to see.  My advice would be write out a list of questions you have and when you call to set it up cross them off as they're answered.  If you're left with anything else you have them right there to ask while you're on the phone.  This includes what they want to see, what ground lessons they'll want taught, maneuvers, etc.  You should have a copy of the PTS to know what to expect for that portion.  Also know how to properly fill out an 8710 (don't roll your eyes) and how to use the IACRA website (I just learned about it at my last renewal and haven't used it for anything yet so don't ask me.)  :confused:  Also know where to look up the proper format for the endorsements you're going to give. These can be found in an advisory circular which is (was?) also printed in the back of the IIRC yellow CFI PTS.  Your CFI certificate number will be your 7 digit pilot certificate number with CFI appended. 1234567CFI. 

If you don't know an answer don't lie.  Look it up just like you would with a student.  Don't make up answers and don't give answers you were unsure about.  I was just asked this by someone I was giving a BFR to regarding GPS database currency.  Since our airplane is 135 the FMS updates are done by either me or maintenance when they're due so the regulatory guidance I've never cared about other than to make sure that our mechanic made an entry into the AFML.  I honestly didn't know what/where/how those requirements were listed beyond what to do according to the company procedures or MEL if your database was out of date so I had to dig it up.  "Lets look it up!" should be a regular phrase especially early on as a CFI.  This accomplishes 2 important things:

1.) It will help you reinforce your confidence because you'll find yourself retaining the knowledge you're researching.
2.) Most importantly it will show your student how to look things up because they're not going to know everything despite what they think or even your best efforts.

Know the difference between procedure and technique.  You're going to see people do things differently than you and its important to know that unless it's a safety of flight issue...it's okay.  Feel free to offer your technique or my best approach was "show me why you're doing it that way." It's an effective way to get into the mind of your student/copilot/captain as to why they do something and you might find you'll learn something.  Discussions like that about sharing knowledge and technique only serve to improve the both of you because there's a million ways to skin this cat of flying safely.

Beyond that you're going to be nervous which is normal.  Remember how you were taught and what you did/didn't like about sitting in the student seat.  This checkride is a role reversal with the examiner/inspector filling the role of a student.  He'll tell you what kind in your briefing whether it's a shiny new private pilot or a commercial applicant (or both in the course of a checkride) because the way you answer some of the questions or present the information will be different for each situation.

I do remember having dauntless-soft software on my computer so I think that's how I prepared for the written tests.  For my ATP I used Sheppard Air (www.sheppardair.com) and when the time comes I'd suggest it for you as well.

You'll do fine.  Initial CFI checkrides have the highest failure rate of any of them because of the very thorough oral portion of the practical test.  You know the information so don't beat yourself up on being perfect because you won't be.  Be effective, be confident and for crying out loud be humble.  If I can pass them all in one whack so can you.

Good luck!
« Last Edit: April 26, 2009, 01:18:56 PM by Golfer »

Offline AKHog

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Re: Question for pilots
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2009, 05:26:47 PM »
Thanks a lot Golfer, lots of really good info there.


I think I'm going to take my test with an examiner, not a FAA inspector. It will end up being about the same price because I'd have to rent and fly the test plane over to another airport for the inspector, where the examiner is local. Also I hear the examiner is a little more forgiving than the inspector.

Do I need the instrument flying handbook even if I'm only going for my CFI and not II?

I downloaded the Dauntless-soft.com software and I like it a lot.

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Offline Golfer

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Re: Question for pilots
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2009, 06:03:21 PM »
It's been a couple years but then you didn't get a say.  The FSDOs were handling all the initial CFIs and could delegate to an examiner if they saw fit/workload permitting. That might vary from FSDO to FSDO or might have been done away with but I'd make sure if I were you and see what the Casper FSFO/Denver FSDO say.  You might be in for an unexpected and unpleasant surprise if they're doing all initial CFIs.  Add-on ratings to your instructor certificate may be done by any designee.

If you have an instrument rating you should already have the Instrument Flying Handbook.  It's still good information and very worthwhile to add on the CFII especially if proficient and you develop a good rapport with your examiner/inspector.

As to designees being better/worse than FAA inspectors it depends on the individual like anything else.  That doesn't mean you should be more/less prepared for your checkride.