Author Topic: 1990 tests; P-51/F6F/P-47/FG-1; all corner speeds close to max. level speed?  (Read 5246 times)

Offline Gaston

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    Hello everyone.

     This is a quote from the recently posted 1990 comparative flight tests done by an association of test pilots;

     "Corner speeds were all VERY CLOSE to the maximum level flight speed, implying rapid energy loss when turning at the structural limit."

     This is the exact passage that made me think that the P-51D with metal elevators had its peak turn rate at around 400 MPH, a claim that Hightech said was "just insane".

     While I do agree a peak turn rate so high is not logical and wrong, and that I compounded this error by misreading/misremembering a 450 yards turn radius at 400 MPH TAS as 450 ft., the above quote does make me wonder just how close to the maximum level speed is the widely accepted 270 MPH TAS corner speed for the P-51D...

     It doesn't seem very close at all. These were tests done by a several professional test pilots, with modern instruments, up to about 6 Gs.

     I'm not claiming my previous statements on this issue were correct, but since they were based on the above, I think some clarification is needed on the words "very close", which I approximately quoted, in a toned-down form even, while citing these 1990 tests...

     Maximum level speed for a P-51D pulling 67" at 10 000 ft. is not too far from 400 MPH TAS, perhaps 385 or so...

     At the very least some explanation is needed here...

     Gaston.


Offline Saurdaukar

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Offline bozon

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...
 While I do agree a peak turn rate so high is not logical and wrong, and that I compounded this error by misreading/misremembering a 450 yards turn radius at 400 MPH TAS as 450 ft., the above quote does make me wonder just how close to the maximum level speed is the widely accepted 270 MPH TAS corner speed for the P-51D...
...
I'd expect the corner speed to be IAS not TAS. If you go high enough, 270 mph IAS will become 400 mph TAS.
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Offline olskool2

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Doesn't corner speed always go up with airspeed? Especially with older birds, where there is no way to retain the energy needed to maintain the best corner speed in a flat turn.

Offline Gaston

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    No to both...

    No, the test specifies an altitude of 10 000 ft., so even 270 IAS would be about 315-320 MPH TAS... This is still a LONG way from the max. level speed at 67" for a P-51D...

    No, "corner speed" is a SPECIFIC speed, usually the lowest speed at which the maximum G can be maintained for a continuous period of time of several seconds (which should equal the minimum radius of turn for a 180°), that is, not a split-second "bump" in Gs.

    "Very close" is odd, and does suggest 350-370 MPH TAS at least... (290-310 IAS at 10 000 ft. roughly)

    My working theory right now is that to save strain on these old airframes, they truncated the turn test to a 90° turn, and extrapolated the rest of the turn from there...

    The problem with doing that is that at increasing speeds, most American WWII fighters respond more crisply with less "mushing" or "lag-time" to the elevator response in the early part of the turn, and this skews the perception of the turning response as getting ever heavier but better as speed goes up. They loose the "mushing", but don't necessarily continue tighter than at a lower speed...

    Actual combat reports (I am about to finish reading the entire supply of P-47/P-51 combat reports from the "WWII aircraft performance" site...) do indicate a better turn rate for the Mustang at higher speeds versus both german fighters (less so for the 109), but not really the high rate of speed loss that is implied in these 1990 tests. At lower speeds the P-47 and P-51 do more than hold their own in prolonged turning, often on the deck, with the only exception being against the FW-190 (the only time the sentence "I was out-turned" [at similar speed] will appear on an U.S. pilot's typewriter is against the 190...).

    Another bit of trivia; Against a Me-109G-6 with underwing gunpods, the P-47 will OUT-spiral climb it to the left, gaining 180° in four consecutive 360° climbing turns, ending it in a victory at 140 MPH IAS at 5000 ft.. (Mc Dermott, May 25 1944.) Contrary to my previous thread title, the 109 does do much better to the right against the p-47, being roughly equal...

    Out-spiral climbing 109s I have yet to hear the P-51 do, strangely enough...

    In any case these 1990 tests do seem odd, and I have heard of at least two veterans being puzzled by them...

    Gaston.

   

     

   

Offline Widewing

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The question is, what power settings were used? Normal Power? MIL power? Combat Power?

I wouldn't be surprised that Normal Power was used. After all, who would volunteer their Warbird to be flown at Combat Power for the sake of an unimportant test?


My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline humble

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Offline BnZs

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In point of fact, corner velocity is the lowest speed at which the maximum allowable Gs can be pulled. It has nothing at all to do with "sustaining" the Gs. WWII prop fighters did not have enough thrust to sustain a max-G turn without descending, nor did the Korean or AFAIK Vietnam era jet fighters.

How can we find the minimum airspeed needed to pull max-Gs? The speed at which an airplane will stall under a specific G-load is the accelerated stall speed. The accelerated stall speed of an airplane in a given configuration can be derived by multiplying the 1g stall speed by the square root of the number of Gs.

For instance, take an airplane with known to stall in clean configuration at 100mph IAS, and which is structurally limited to 8gs. The square root of 8 being 2.83, that means the accelerated stall speed for that aircraft *will* be 283 mph IAS, in *clean* configuration. However, the corner speed for the P-51 is usually quoted not in clean configuration, but with one notch of flaps deployed, which will increase lift and lower corner velocity somewhat to...around the same 270mph IAS that has been known for 60 some odd years. Rather anticlimactic outcome, aye?

Pilot resistance to G-forces plays a heavy role in air combat, especially without G-suits, so just for sh*ts and giggles we'll work out the 6g accelerated stall speed, which turns out to be 245 mph IAS.

For further sh*ts and giggles, let us say that the airplane is at a higher gross weight than the, I don't know, 9,611 lbs. usually quoted in performance reports for this aircraft. Let us say that it is loaded heavily enough to raise the 1g stall speed to 105 mph. Through the "magic" of physics and mathematics, we find that the 8g accelerated stall speed of the aircraft has now become 297mph IAS. In fact, lets do calculate for 6 and 4 gs using this heavier weight:

8g accelerated stall-297mph IAS
6g accelerated stall-257mph IAS
4g accelerated stall-210mph IAS

For additional sh*ts and giggles, we will look at an airplane known to stall in clean configuration at 127mph IAS:

8g accelerated stall-359mph IAS
6g accelerated stall-311mph IAS
4g accelerated stall-254mph IAS

Now note, these figures are not even close. In fact, the former aircraft has 8gs of lift available at a speed lower than than the 6g stall speed of the latter aircraft! These figures make it very likely that any "out-turning" of the former on the part of the latter has alot to do with the geometry of ACM and skilled piloting and little to do with any putative turn advantage for the vastly heavier-loaded aircraft. Sustained turn radius is so closely tied to an airplane's loading/minimum flying speed that the latter aircraft simply could not sustain a tighter radius speed for speed, and for the much heaver loaded aircraft to have an advantage in sustained turn rate would require a vast advantage in thrust which simply does not exist when comparing the two aircraft in question.

However, a Fw-190 at 300mph IAS will easily avoid/turn-inside a P-51 piloted  by someone who has been taught to "keep it fast" and is chugling along at 400mph IAS, a fact which I suppose is lost on those unfamiliar with even the basic practicalities of ACM.   :devil More is the pity, could save a lot typing if this were not the case.

Oh and Gaston, there is no mechanism in the real world for the aerodynamic forces of a deflected elevator to be "delayed", and if you have discovered one, you're the first since Kittyhawk to do so. Here is something for you to do with your time than posting to this forum: Get a library card. Check out a book on basic aerodynamics. Even the very basic stuff they teach you in ground school for a private pilot ticket would illuminate you in regards to how airfoils work, critical AoA, accelerated stall, and the formula for deriving accelerated stall speed.
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Offline BnZs

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http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/er/78-mcdermott-25may44.jpg

There is so much that goes into winning even a simple Luftberry in the real world that we don't have in the sim...our "pilots" are not variable in their G-tolerance, nor is it very hard to ride the ragged edge with a stall warning and predictable, easily detectable buffet on your side.

And of course we can expect the Jug to have superior engine performance above 20K.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2009, 10:38:03 PM by BnZs »
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Offline bozon

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Oh and Gaston, there is no mechanism in the real world for the aerodynamic forces of a deflected elevator to be "delayed", and if you have discovered one, you're the first since Kittyhawk to do so. Here is something for you to do with your time than posting to this forum: Get a library card. Check out a book on basic aerodynamics. Even the very basic stuff they teach you in ground school for a private pilot ticket would illuminate you in regards to how airfoils work, critical AoA, accelerated stall, and the formula for deriving accelerated stall speed.
Actually there is a "delay" - this is the time it takes the pilot to actually pull the stick and increase the AOA, especially at high speeds. In AH the delay simulates the stick forces since you cannot make a plastic tabletop joystick to produce forces. And the library card lecture was not very polite.
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Offline Stoney

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I wouldn't be surprised that Normal Power was used. After all, who would volunteer their Warbird to be flown at Combat Power for the sake of an unimportant test?

Not to mention pulling 6 Gs.  In another thread, we, with a few exceptions, agreed that the results of that report are highly questionable.  So much so as to doubt its ability to be used as a comparitive reference for the characteristics of the tested aircraft.
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HiTech

Offline BnZs

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Actually there is a "delay" - this is the time it takes the pilot to actually pull the stick and increase the AOA, especially at high speeds. In AH the delay simulates the stick forces since you cannot make a plastic tabletop joystick to produce forces. And the library card lecture was not very polite.

The time to deflect the elevator is not what is meant by delay. The OP theorizes that a given elevator deflection can occur and *not* develop aerodynamic forces for awhile, which is absurd and impossible at speeds below compressability. Politeness is given where politeness is deserved, which is not the case with this incessant inanity.

BTW, if we take the accelerated stall formula and plug in 350mphIAS as the 6g accelerated stall speed, that implies a 1g stall speed of approximately 142 mph IAS. I don't know the exact amount of weight you would have to add to a P-51 to raise its Vs to 142mph IAS (There are some on the forum who can probably calculate it in their heads), but I'm going to hazard a guess that you would have to burden the aircraft to beyond its listed maximum takeoff weight.
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Offline hitech

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Technically speaking there is a delay. But in the speed ranges we are speaking of, it would be less than 0.1 seconds from 0 AOA to max AOA. Most pilots will not ever match the performance of the plane at those speeds simply because the snatch/sudden onset of g's is not a pleasant experience, think sledge hammer on top of head.  I.E. it )(*)&)(& hurts.

Most people would smoothly pull into it in the less than 1 sec range.

HiTech

Offline hitech

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Quote
  No, "corner speed" is a SPECIFIC speed, usually the lowest speed at which the maximum G can be maintained for a continuous period of time of several seconds (which should equal the minimum radius of turn for a 180°), that is, not a split-second "bump" in Gs.

Please Please Please research some basic terms,

Corner speed is the slowest an aircraft can go and still pull it's airframes limit  (or pilot limit) of g's given in IAS. There is nothing sustained about it.

So when you make statements like
Quote
G can be maintained for a continuous period


It only shows how completely clue less you are.

There are many people here who would love to help expand your knowledge, but you are going to have to start asking questions about things you do not know, and at the very least start learning some basic equations of flight.

I have not checked the math, but I would venture to guess all WWII planes can maintain corner  speed at max G until they run out of altitude.

HiTech

HiTech

Offline Saurdaukar

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Most pilots will not ever match the performance of the plane at those speeds simply because the snatch/sudden onset of g's is not a pleasant experience, think sledge hammer on top of head.  I.E. it )(*)&)(& hurts.

Can we model this?

Sounds like a great opportunity to fix the physics-defying e-pilot we have.