Eastern Front

[Curlew]

So Im working on a paper about why the germans were pushed back after such a sucsessful push into russia, and I want to hear all of your opinions on why the russians were able to push back the germans, and with any luck we will make this an intense thread.

so tell me, what was the cause of germanys downfall

[Treize69]

Masses of Homo Sapiens.

[Saxman]

[Spikes]

Cold winters in Russia...Russian army had stuff to protect...Germany didn't.

[FLOTSOM]

add the two responses above to the interference and stupidity of Hitler at that sums it up.

his first mistake was to split his forces after entering Russia and sending half of his armies south to capture the oil fields instead of sticking to the original plan and pushing everything onward until moscow was under German occupation and Stalin was either dead or on the run.

Hitler again split his army further and demanded that Leningrad be taken when he should have just bombed it destroying the factories and then bypassed it instead of pinning down over 300,000 men in a street fight that his men had neither the proper training nor the proper weapons for. they were trained for a fast moving lightning war, not a room by room building by building street by street engagement.

he left his army sitting exposed on the outskirts of moscow with no cover through a brutal winter that they had no cold weather equipment for.

face it, in all theaters Hitler was the greatest asset the allies had. without his incompetence added alongside of Goering's and Himmler's the allies wouldn't have stood a chance.

no other idiots would have opened a two front war against the two biggest industrial countries (America and Russia) at the same time, had they have solidified the western front and capturd Britain before turning the fight to Russia the world would be  much different place today.

just my thoughts on the issue

[VansCrew1]

Biggest this like saxman said was the winter. It stopped the German army from being supplied from the air and probably killed more Germans then the Russians did. If Hitler did not wait a year to attack Russia, it probably would of been a different story.

[Angus]

What Flotsom said pretty much sums it up. Not all though.
Hitler didn't really JUST want to win/capture the USSR, he wanted to DESTROY the red army. A planner like Guderian, would have had a different approach, which he did.
The attack plan included not just the goal, but also cooking up the enemy's armies to the point of destruction. Cauldron battle. Encircle the enemy and close in until the point of annihilation was the plan. So, blitzkrieg with a menace.
That is however much slower than simply carrying on and doing the job (tumble the enemy, capture the flag).
Then came the command of a southern swing, which kept the Germans busy both fighting and very much DRIVING before entering the issue of .... Moscow.
Moscow did not fall, but what cut that clear was within arty range. There was no grand battle of Moscow. The Germans had exhausted themselves with a combination (from command) of pointless battles, endless transport, complete waste of time, overstretched supply lines, too many enemies, and Hitler at the helm, making bull of the lot. (Thank you god). So they spent enough time while winter fell, and aided the Russians as "General Winter", which they were very much familiar with. By the way, the south of the line has to submit to winter one month later than Moscow.
Had the Germans gone straight for Moscow, done the job of USSR HQ, and then swung south for the feeding farms (Ukraine with the food, then the oil etc) they would have had the time. Had they had some access by sea, which was stopped by the British), they might have had even more success. And had they not been at war with the British in the first place, their force would have been quite much stronger.
So, they played a dicey game, and overstretched themselves to the limit where MAJOR mistakes could not work.

[Curlew]

I gotta say all of your perspective is great so far, realy helpin with the paper

[Ack-Ack]

There was also treatment of the citizens in the occupied areas.  Ukraine first heralded the Germans as liberators but soon turned against the occupiers after their intent was realized.  This caused the Germans to allocate much needed resources for the front to protect their rear supply lines against partisans.


ack-ack

[ghostdancer]

Yep what Ack-Ack said. Stalin really was not loved by his people and many of the various localities and peoples hated him. Instead of tapping into this and using it against Stalin the Germans actually treated the various slavic people worse than Stalin did and actually drove them into Soviet Arms and fuel nationalism. Since it very quickly became a case of annihilation or slavery under the Hitler and the Germans or resist them and a bit better treatment under Stalin.

Soviets had man power (Hitler lossed his chance early on to recruit the disgruntled masses under Stalin to his side) , an industrilization that the Germans under estimated .. when it really got rolling the Soviets produce massive amounts of T-34s, aircraft, etc., the Soviet Winter, and the vastnes of Russia. I mean basically the Soviets pickup and movie their factories to the west outside of German bomber range and then started up producing weapons again. Also Hitler misjudged the British. Basically he figured a quick war which would be settled in the West and allow him access to material raw resources after it was settled. When that didn't happen some argued he turned against Russia to secure resources which the British blocked him from accessing. Part of why he went after the oil fields in the Caucaus until he made the mistake of splitting his army and trying to take Stalingrad (mainly for ego purposes .. if it was name Belograd of something some think he would have ignored the city) instead of keeping his army group together and taking the Caucus oil fields. So yeah, also Hitler himself and his incompetence and ego was another reason the Russians succeed. Eventually after taking terrible beatings Stalin let his generals run the war instead of himself (much of the early strategic and disasterous decisions by the Russians were made by Stalin). Stalin learned his lesson and stop meddling in the running minutia of the war .. Hitler didn't.

[Curlew]

so here is my outline so far please feel free to add to it or suggest sites and sources that could be really helpful, i still have to add in a few sections about the german attitude and the russain risitance, all i ahve right now is an outline of the battles by time period, thank you al for the help

1.Introduction
    a.   Pavlov’s house
           i.   A description as if you were the solider, a day in the life
    b.   Breif description of overall eastern front
           i.   Casualties
          ii.   Berlin-Stalingrad-Berlin
         iii.   1941-45
2.Background
    a.   Molotov- Ribbentrop Pact
           i.   1939
          ii.   Non- aggression pact
    b.   German Attacks
           i.   June 22nd 1941
          ii.   Hitler’s orders
3.Summer 1941
    a.   Germans attack
           i.   Operation Barbosa
          ii.   Germans make a big push into Russia
    b.   Autumn
          i.   Germans continue push to Moscow
                      1.   They were not prepared for a city battle, trained for fast forward movment not street fighting
                      2.   There was no major battle outside of Moscow because the germans were exhausted form pointless battles, pointless transport, and strung out supply lines
4.Winter 1941
     a.   Germans are pushed back from Moscow
     b.   Russians were fresh
           i.   These troops were stationed over on the east coast in expectation of Japanese attack that never happened
          ii.   This attack could have helped the germans
    c.   Russians were better equipped
           i.   Reinforced with the new t34 tanks and kaytusha rocket artillery
          ii.   Proper winter clothing   
         iii.   Even several ski batallions
    d.   Germans were not prepared or supplied for the winter
           i.   No winter gear,  exhausted and freezing
5. Summer of 1942
    a.   Germans push south towards the don and Volga rivers aswell as the oilfields near caucasus to the south
           i.   Plan was origonaly to secure the rivers then the oilfields near caucasus but hitlers vanity caused him to order both be taken simultaneously, stretching his forces thinner
    b.   Reach Stalingrad
          i.   First attacked with and under strength army and by the time the Germans were reinforced the Russians had already stiffened their defenses
    c.   Big mistake because they split and thinned the army instead of pushing into Moscow
6.Winter of 1942
    a.   Stalingrad
           i.   Germans had left the surrounding area to a Romanian division which was unsuited to hold the bridges
          ii.   The Russians took hold of these bridges, amassed a force and attacked by surrounding the city and pushing forward
                      1.   Trapped 300k German soldiers in the city
                      2.   Germans tried to counter attack to reach the soldiers stuck in the city, but couldn’t get close for about a month, by which time the soldiers were to exhausted and starving to break out towards the German lines
                      3.   The counter attack was stopped short 65km short of Stalingrad and was flanked by Russian forces who destroyed a large number of supply transport aircraft, further damaging the German supply lines
         iii.   Took the city back
                      1.   The remaining 90k troops surrendered
         iv.   Hitler Pulled back over the Don in order to save those forces
   b.   Second R-S Offensive
   c.   Push back most of german summer advance
7.Summer of 1943
    a.   Hitler deffers planning to the german generals
    b.   Germans push to kursk
           i.   Heavily defeded, very little ground gained, heavy casualties
8.Autumn and winter of 1943
   a.   Russians make major ground back, heading towards Germany
9.1944-1945
   a.   Russians push into Germany, take Berlin
10.   Conclusion


its not finished and sorry bout the messy outline, it didnt transfer well form mw, thanks again

[choppit]

IMO if Hitler had put more emphasis on North Africa and had driven the British past the Suez Canal and into the middle east, there might have been a chance of Turkey entering the war on the side of the Axis(I'm not entirely sure of Turkey's intentions on neutrality during this time period, it might have happened, it might not have). I don't know much about the assets that that might have given the Germans economically, but the advantage strategically would have given Hitler a second route to enter the Soviet Union by. As can be said for the Germans, a two front war would have been present, but for the Soviets this time through. This, although, is based just on the assumption that Turkey would join the side of the Axis in the event of imminent threat from the Germans.

[Stoney]

so tell me, what was the cause of germanys downfall

Ultimately, in my opinion, the concept that a ground invasion would conquer that people and that country.  If the Germans had captured Moscow, would the Russians have surrendered?  If the Germans had captured Stalingrad, would the Russians have surrendered?  How far east would the German army need to go to get the Russians to surrender?  I personally don't think they could go far enough.  Germany would have needed the Atomic bomb to "defeat" the Russians, and even then, political surrender is still questionable in my opinion.  I don't think the Germans could have achieved a decisive victory ever, without atomic weapons.

[E25280]

I don't think you can say with any seriousness that there wasn't a major battle for Moscow.  It bogged down into a war of attrition, but there most certainly was a long, ongoing battle that came within 40 miles of Moscow proper, costing some 1 million Soviet casualties.

What stopped the Germans?  Winter, overstretched supply lines, sure . . . but IMO the key really was Japan, and by extension, US foreign policy.  

The movement of the Soviet Far East forces westward were crucial to stopping the Germans in front of Moscow.  Their arrival and counter-attack essentially halted Germany's forward movement.  

The movement of these forces would not have happened except that it became clear to Russian intelligence in Japan that the Japanese were not going to follow a "northern course" into Siberia.  Hitler basically told the Japanese they needed to move or else Germany would have it all rolled up and they wouldn't need Japan anymore.  But Japan did nothing.  

Why?  

The US had imposed an oil embargo on Japan.  This forced Japan to look toward gaining the British and Dutch oil fields to sustain their war with China.  They could not risk US interference with their plans (the US controlling the Phillipines, right on the sea lanes between Dutch Indonesia and Japan), so they needed to knock out US sea power quickly.  This lead to Pearl Harbor and the Pacific War.

If not for the oil embargo, Japan may have felt secure enough to launch another foray into Siberia, locking those crucial Soviet troops in place, and perhaps handing Germany both Moscow and a defeated Russia.

But as with all hindsight, one can only speculate as to the real outcome.  

[SmokinLoon]

Three things saved the Soviet Union:

First; masses upon masses of personel and material.

Second; much better supply lines.

Third: The genuis of Russia's three best military commanders of all time: Generals December, January, and February.

Otherwise, the Germans were better trained and had much better field leadership, better equiped on the ground and in the air, and had a much deeper playbook of tactics.