Author Topic: The Deadliest Warrior  (Read 2181 times)

Offline ink

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2009, 12:31:35 PM »
It also sounds like he's SERIOUSLY overestimating the katana, which has an extremely limited utility as a slicing blade and would be a very poor choice against a heavily armored opponent. For armored fighting especially the edge would go towards someone trained in and weilding a longsword. A point designed for thrusting (curved blades are VERY awkward for accurate thrusts) combined with half-sword techniques allows for precision strikes at gaps in the plate. Add in use of the pommel and guard in both strikes and grappling/hooking, and the longsword has a clear advantage in harnischfechten.

the bold on your quote,   :rofl :rofl, I have seen what they can do, (not on a human mind you),But the Katana I have, is a 3 foot long scuple.

concidering I have owned Many swords, all have been combat ready, I would take the Katana over all.


BnZs

sounds good.

Offline Saxman

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #31 on: May 01, 2009, 12:48:08 PM »
Let me clarify: Its use as a slicing blade isn't what's limited. It's that it's pretty much what the katana's utility is limited TO.

You have a single edge which limits the sort of cuts you can perform. Thrusting is awkard because of the curve of the blade, and is also further limited by blade geometry. A sword WILL NOT cut through plate armor. I don't care what magical properties you think Japanese swords had. Steel does NOT cut steel (I think the Mythbusters proved this pretty conclusively) in this manner. The katana is a very specialized sword. At best you could cause blunt-force trauma, but against high-quality plate (which used ridges and roping to further stiffen it) you're going to ruin your edge before doing significant damage to an opponent.

For sheer flexibility and versatility the katana is hopelessly outdone by the longsword, and its pure cutting ability isn't so far behind the katana as you might think. The two edges of the longsword provides more versatility in the cut, and the guard is as much an offensive tool as it is to protect the hand (hooking, tripping, striking, binding the blade, etc). The pommel is also just as often used offensively as it is to counterweight the blade (where do you think the verb "pummel" comes from?) The taper of the blade makes it ideally suited for the thrust which, combined with half-sword techniques, makes the longsword idea for close-quarters fighting against armored opponents where precision thrusts can defeat the best suit of armor.
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Offline Anodizer

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #32 on: May 01, 2009, 01:03:37 PM »
the bold on your quote,   :rofl :rofl, I have seen what they can do, (not on a human mind you),But the Katana I have, is a 3 foot long scuple.

concidering I have owned Many swords, all have been combat ready, I would take the Katana over all.


BnZs

sounds good.

Absolutely...  Not sure what the other guy (Sax) is talking about...  Maybe he's mistaking a saber for a Katana....?  A Katana could easily get in between pieces of armor and do damage..
As far as sharpness, I'm not so sure Sax knows what a Katana is unless he's thinking about the stainless steel replicas one can buy..  Those replicas are made only for show and wouldn't even
hold an edge after cutting through a loaf of bread...  True Katanas (and the ones built today as well as the past by swordsmiths) are razor sharp and they remain razor sharp due to the processes used in creating it..  Katanas were also well known for being able to cut through metal..  A Katana would be just as durable as a long sword and much less unwieldy..  The only true capability the long sword was useful in was thrusting which would be easy for a Katana wielder to parry or block and make a fight-ending counter strike..  Sorry, but these two weapons just aren't even comparable..    
Two experienced swordsman: one with a katana, the other with a longsword....  I'd put my money on the Katana wielder any day...  
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Offline Saxman

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2009, 02:51:11 PM »
Anodizer,

Thanks for proving just as clueless as ink, who misread my first post.

Quote
A Katana could easily get in between pieces of armor and do damage..

Define easily. At full range you don't have the point control for that degree of accuracy with a cut. The best way to do it is at close range with a thrust.

Quote
Katanas were also well known for being able to cut through metal.

According to what scientific source and study? A katana couldn't even slice through the mail hauberk in their tests for Deadliest Warrior.

Quote
...much less unwieldy

Total myth. This was a lightweight, (2-3lbs max) extremely well balanced (3" from hilt) weapon. The longsword is quick and very agile.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rdg-ooGKgoY

Very evenly matched, here and certainly no overwhelming edge to the katana (waster vs. bokken, so no one decides to be a smartass and point it out)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 03:04:20 PM by Saxman »
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline mechanic

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2009, 02:52:36 PM »
the longsword was intended for use with a sheild, dont forget. The katana is not a heavy weapon and penetration with a cut or slash would depend on intimate knoledge of the enemy's weak spots. What part of history makes everyone believe the oriental warriors had such overpowering agility and weapon skill compared to European races? Sure they looked at combat in different ways and trained more intensively than your average militia army....but what about the yeoman who trained as an archer every single day of his young and mature life BY LAW. The raining death of 40,000 longbows makes samurai look like action figures.

 Like BnZs said, put a casual player into the DA with a regular dueler and the outcome is often obvious. But flip that round and put the regular dueler in a furball and watch them die fast. Just like the samurai who complains that they use cannons and rifles, only to be killed and forgotten because of the foolish notion that warfare should be man to man with honour.

A viking vs a samurai in 1 on 1 combat? The whole idea is flawed that the viking would agree to fight on the samurai's terms like that.
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Offline Saxman

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2009, 02:55:58 PM »
the longsword was intended for use with a sheild, dont forget.

NO IT WAS NOT. The longsword was a two-handed sword. PERIOD.

And does this look like an unwieldly sword:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsGU5KI1qJA

Here's an even better one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GhKrgUmKGc&NR=1
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 03:03:06 PM by Saxman »
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline mechanic

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2009, 03:05:59 PM »
Really? Ok then my mistake. Well when are we going to set the rules of this fight in stone then? The vikings in general would have prefered to use a sheild and one handed weapon in combat unless maybe they were vastly stronger an the enemy. Why are we now saying the viking is fighting with a two handed sword? Or maybe why did the TV show chose a two handed weapon vs a katana? Why dont we just have a contest to see which one of them speaks more fluent japanese?
Do you disagree with anything else i posted before this one?
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Offline Saxman

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2009, 03:10:32 PM »
We kind of got off track thanks to ink and anodizer and their "OMFG TEH SAMURI WOULD WIN 'CAUS TEH KITANA IZ TEH SUPERIORIST SWORD EVAR!! ROFL!!!1!!!11111!!!" ignorance.

Here's another waster vs. bokken. They're pulling their shots, but there's a more clear winning cuts to the openings by the longsword:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFGPCTMp2cw&feature=related

Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Raptor

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2009, 03:12:37 PM »
I think the pairing in this show is ridiculous. They put warriors with different strategies against each other. Spartan vs Ninja? Pirate vs Knight?
How about Ninja vs Pirate and Spartan vs Knight. Now THAT is something I would like to see.

Offline Anodizer

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2009, 03:13:53 PM »
Anodizer,

Thanks for proving just as clueless as ink, who misread my first post.

Define easily. At full range you don't have the point control for that degree of accuracy with a cut. The best way to do it is at close range with a thrust.

According to what scientific source and study? A katana couldn't even slice through the mail hauberk in their tests for Deadliest Warrior.

Total myth. This was a lightweight, (2-3lbs max) extremely well balanced (3" from hilt) weapon. The longsword is quick and very agile.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rdg-ooGKgoY

Very evenly matched, here and certainly no overwhelming edge to the katana (waster vs. bokken, so no one decides to be a smartass and point it out)

First of all, to use information gathered from a severely flawed TV show is invalid..  The show is for entertainment purposes..  Much like the show Dogfights..
You think that show is viable as well?  

Frankly, I'm on vacation at the moment and don't feel the time or need to cite information.  All I know is the information I've read about and spoken to others
in the Kendo community, of which I am a part of as well as research I've done on my own regarding Medieval martial arts and weaponry..

Also, you posted a video of two gentlemen fight with nothing more than wooden analogues of a Katana and Longsword..  Neither are wearing traditional armor..
Neither seems properly schooled, especially the guy wielding the Bokken..  To compare something on this is as well as a TV show......well.....  It's not right...

What other kinds of information to find accurate as far as TV and YouTube is concerned?
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Offline ODBAL

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2009, 03:32:35 PM »
Lightsaber pwns all.
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Offline Saxman

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #41 on: May 01, 2009, 03:34:39 PM »
Not all of fencing is DONE in armor. In fact Blossfechten plays as much of a role in longsword as harnischfechten.

BUT you want armor? Here it is, couple guys from ARMA:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnqOMbFDEAI

More ARMA, blossfechten with steel practice swords:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNja00FNyeg&feature=related

These aren't just "two guys on YouTube." ARMA is one of the foremost martial arts revival societies.

http://www.thehaca.com/

And I just KNEW you were going to dismiss the bokken vs. waster out of hand.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 03:36:50 PM by Saxman »
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Speed55

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #42 on: May 01, 2009, 03:43:55 PM »
The show would have been great if they showed two "possible" outcomes, with each warrior winning the fight.
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Offline crazyivan

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #43 on: May 01, 2009, 03:45:22 PM »
I think the pairing in this show is ridiculous. They put warriors with different strategies against each other. Spartan vs Ninja? Pirate vs Knight?
How about Ninja vs Pirate and Spartan vs Knight. Now THAT is something I would like to see.
ninja vs samuri, gladiator vs spartan. sounds better to me .
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Offline Anodizer

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Re: The Deadliest Warrior
« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2009, 04:13:12 PM »
Not all of fencing is DONE in armor. In fact Blossfechten plays as much of a role in longsword as harnischfechten.

BUT you want armor? Here it is, couple guys from ARMA:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnqOMbFDEAI

More ARMA, blossfechten with steel practice swords:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNja00FNyeg&feature=related

These aren't just "two guys on YouTube." ARMA is one of the foremost martial arts revival societies.

http://www.thehaca.com/

And I just KNEW you were going to dismiss the bokken vs. waster out of hand.


You're missing my point completely...  You are showing guys fighting in the same style with the same type of sword....  How is this relevant to the conversation?
I thought we were talking about Katana versus Longsword???
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