190 engine damage

[janjan]

This may have been a topic before, but I wanted to give it a go once more.

Sooo....about 50% of times I am downed as flying 190 A5 or A8, the cause is engine. It has nasty habit to to cease very easily with one ping and mostly without any other damage to the plane i.e. no oil leak.

So my question is: why is 190 engine damage model so much different than other radials in AH?

I thought 190 engine had a reputation to keep on running even after 1 or 2 cylinders were shot.

Also...A8 is as easy to engine damage as A5 -it should have good armor protection at engine or am i totally lost here?

This 'problem' have been here since early beta. If 190 engine should be like that...fine. Just wondering.

Janjan

[GRUNHERZ]

Hi

BMW801s were plenty tough, there were almost as many stories of them coming back all shot up and missing cylinders as there were about the P47. I think there is a general trend in AH to make the axis planes much more vulnerable in the engine area than their allied counterparts. For example the 109 motor seizes up 3 or 4 seconds after the oil cooler is hit, while the P51 takes something like 20-30 seconds, check out the film of camo vs hangtime to see what I mean. Simmilar thing with the N1K2 vs F4U. And as you say the 190 also has a very vulnerable engine/oil cooler system.

thanks GRUNHERZ

[Fishu]

I've been wondering engine damages of allied/axis planes alot too.
I have myself flown P-47 with radiator damage for over 5 minutes till I were forced to ditch due to vertical stabilizer damage (And on the ground I still were rolling for a while until I seized next to a hill)

P-51 is same, I've seen them fly for over halfa minute, if not full minute with oil damage, while even longer with radiator damage.
I thought that P-51 has inline engine as well as 109s..

This does not seem anywhere near fair that 109 goes down with oil/radiator damage right away but P-51, F4u and P47 flies enough long to finish the fight.

But I guess HTC knows.....

[GRUNHERZ]

Hi

I knew there was an issue with oil cooler damage on a P51, but if it runs for a minute as u say with radiator damage then somehing really is wrong. Everyone has heard that when the radiator was shot, that was it for a 51 or any liquid cooled plane. If a Mustang looses radiator there is no earthly reason why it should run longer than a 109 withot radiator.

thanks GRUNHERZ

[Hristo]

Wasn't 109 equiped with switches to redirect the cooling liquid from damaged radiator ?

Surely not modeled here.

[janjan]

ok ok thanks fellow luftwobles  

Intention was not to flame!

I wanted to ask if anyone know why 190 angine 'always' shows engine dead? I can remember maybe 2 oil-leaks in my whole time in AH 190. Engine just stops when hit. Even from dead six. Other radial engines pour heavy black smoke in the same situation and keep running couple of minutes.

Anyone having the same experience?

Is the engine layout that much different than other radials or is there a bug maybe?

And btw 109 engine is much more durable than 190's in AH.

janjan

[Vermillion]

Could it have something to do with the fuel injection system of the BMW801 that was extremely susceptible to engine fires?

And Janjan, armor on aircraft is a relative term. It means increased protection, but only the very thickest armor, for instance the firewall, or the pilot armor at very high angles could stop a .50 caliber shell, and even then it was mostly just protection against the light caliber MG shells.

There wasn't any armor on the engine of any Fw190 that could stop a .50 cal MG.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[funked]

There are stories of Merlins going on for a few minutes with a hit to the radiator, in both P-51D and Spit.

BMW 801 should die a bit quicker than R-2800 if there is an oil leak because the oil tank and the amount of oil in the engine were a bit smaller.

There's no significant difference in the armor protection on the A-5 and A-8 cowling.  In any case the armor was too thin to stop a .50 cal bullet.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-26-2000).]

[fats]

Hristo,

The switches were found on K-4s and some F-2s ( well some F variant anyway ).


// fats

[minus]

i FLame  ,,, the 190 geting below 300 shoting 4x 20 mm  the shells rebounce from aluminium plate and hiting the 190 >>>>>>
The  Tankie dream story  , dag how this people like the scifi  stories   they building  the plane reputation on LEGEND  

hehehe  what a .....  and the miracle 50 caliber  well it shot trough the engine cilinder from 600 distance and up , well super strong th 50 caliber just wonder how the plane kepp flying with that onster recoil


Flame go biger now  

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Hi

I knew there was an issue with oil cooler damage on a P51, but if it runs for a minute as u say with radiator damage then somehing really is wrong. Everyone has heard that when the radiator was shot, that was it for a 51 or any liquid cooled plane. If a Mustang looses radiator there is no earthly reason why it should run longer than a 109 withot radiator.

thanks GRUNHERZ

I Witnessed once friendly P-51 going into fight with 2 P-51s, I were low on gas and shot down one plane 5k away from P-51s, but I saw the friendly P-51 pouring out grey smoke indicating that he had radiator damage.
I landed safely at the base, almost as a glider.. I were looking around in the tower for while and then I saw that friendly P-51 gliding back to the base!

That actually amazed me, he took care of two P-51s while his radiator was broke and then fly back home from almost over the enemy base, where fight was done. (5 miles from the base)

I didn't even myself come fast to home, I glided most of the part below 200mph to conserve fuel.
He fought there at least 3 minutes.

[Jigster]

Um. The engine doesn't seize until it overheats as far as the radiator goes.

Watch it sometimes. Same with the oil cooler. Engine doesn't seize until the pressure drops.

You can keep a plane flying for a very long ways with the radiator hit, provide you never allow it to overheat. ( rare, but documented occurrences   )

- Jig

[-lazs-]

funked.... What was that about oil capacity <G>... All LW planes with fuel injection would be very dangerous to fly when missing cylinders.   Most smart LW pilots bailed at the first sign of an engine hit.   If you lose a cylinder in a BMW 801 the fuel pump will continue to pump (spray) raw fuel all over the hot engine due to the fact that the fuel pump is multi chambered and doesnt know there is no longer a cylinder to feed, same for fuel line hits on any cylinder..  Same goes for 109's.  

Water cooled engines are much more delicate than any radial.   Coolant loss in one cylinder affects all cylinders.  rocker arm, water jacket, cylinder, hits all affect the entire unit where radial engines are autonomous.   A radial engine can lose a cylinder and have the rod and piston flop around in the breeze with little effect to the remaining cylinders but... A water cooled inline will trash the entire engine when one cylinder is hit not to mention the loss of the entire coolant supply.

lazs

[eddiek]

I found an article from AIRPOWER, July 1976, Vol. 6 No. 4, from Col. "Kit" Carson, in which he talked about the evaluations of the 109 and the 190......
Regarding the 190, he said that the oil cooler system, which was a "number of finned tubes shaped into a ring of tubes a little larger in diameter than the cooling fan" was fitted into the rounded portion of the cowling just aft of the fan.

"I don't think this was a good idea.  For example, my principal aiming point was always the forward potion of an enemy ship; the engine, cockpit, wing root section.  If you get any hits at all, even only a few, you're bound to put one or two slugs into the engine compartment.  Having a couple of bullets riccochet off the engine block and tear up some igniton harness is not bad at all, at least not fatal.  But to have all those thin-walled oil cooling tubes ahead of the engine is  bad news.  Any hits or riccochets in the engine section are bound to puncture the oil tubes.  Then the whole engine is immersed in oil spray, and sometimes it would flash over into a fire.  All of the 12 FW's I shot down sent off a trail of dense, boiling smoke heavy enough to fog up my gun camera lens and windshield if I were so close."

Not sure how much engine oil the 190 had onboard, but the P47 carried a 28.6 gallon oil tank for the engine.  Maybe the 190 had less oil, and ran out of oil faster?