Author Topic: Fw190-D9 Turn Times?  (Read 1411 times)

Offline Kratzer

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Fw190-D9 Turn Times?
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2001, 12:34:00 PM »
The dora is a badass through and through, and I think the initial rate of turn is pretty good... combine that with a kick-ass roll rate, and it doesn't get the credit it deserves.

And by the way, could we please have just one whoopee thread that doesn't degenerate into a squeaking and whining contest about something completely unrelated to the subject at hand? For christ's sake that toejam gets old fast.

Offline Zigrat

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Fw190-D9 Turn Times?
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2001, 02:07:00 PM »
loaded dora should have a best sustained turn rate of 19.3 dps at around 199 mph at sea level when full of gas, about a 3.2 g turn.

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: Zigrat ]

Offline Zigrat

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Fw190-D9 Turn Times?
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2001, 02:12:00 PM »
naudet do you know the activity factor of the 190s blade? the pitch at 3/4 chord?

Offline Vermillion

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Fw190-D9 Turn Times?
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2001, 04:26:00 PM »
Yeah, this is why I asked this question.

I've been flying the Dora alot lately, but it seems in comparison to the P-51D, that it lacks in acceleration, dive acceleration, and vertical performance to not be very good comparitively.  Categories where I thought it should be at least slightly better given what I knew about the aircraft. Ie 2130 hp at 9479 lbs, versus the 1760 hp at 9600 lbs of the Mustang.

Me and Wells have been discussing this by email (well.. me asking questions and him explaining alot  :) ), and he sent me alot of good technical information. I'll post it here if he doesn't mind.

But the short of it is, that the theoretical numbers he comes up with, tend to match the numbers that he gets testing the plane in AH.

So maybe I'm just getting outflown  :)

Offline Kratzer

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Fw190-D9 Turn Times?
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2001, 04:54:00 PM »
The Dora certainly climbs better, rolls better, and seems to catch the 51 after a while, but I think the 51 dives faster.  Then again, I've caught 51s in a dive with a C.205 before too...  :)

Offline Naudet

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Fw190-D9 Turn Times?
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2001, 01:30:00 AM »
Zigrat, i am the part of the team, that has to search the sources.  :)

I just got the excel tables we use to calculate speed/climb. In the next step i will try to understand the way turnrate is measured.

But 3.2G@199mph@19,3 °/s is far from anything real i think.


Addition to my data.

The turnrates are for a weight of 4270kg NOT 4230kg. I checked this at home.

Offline Apar

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Fw190-D9 Turn Times?
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2001, 04:43:00 AM »
I started flying the Dora more in tour 21, in tour 22 it is my prefered ride. I think it performs pretty good on high speed against a P51D. On low speed the p51D is better (200 -)

Offline Vermillion

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Fw190-D9 Turn Times?
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2001, 03:28:00 PM »
Apar, what I'm trying to figure out is why the P-51D's are usually outflying me in the vertical, and in acceleration (or at least my perception as such), when the Dora has (or at least should have) a superior powerloading.

Thats the key question  :)

Offline HoHun

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Fw190-D9 Turn Times?
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2001, 03:43:00 PM »
Hi Vermillion,

>Apar, what I'm trying to figure out is why the P-51D's are usually outflying me in the vertical, and in acceleration (or at least my perception as such), when the Dora has (or at least should have) a superior powerloading.

You can test acceleration quite conveniently by noting down time for an altitude interval in a stabilized climb - it's proportional to climb rate.

Try this at different speeds with both aircraft to get a good picture.

At low speed, the better power loading of the Fw 190D-9 should beat the P-51D easily. The P-51d could be better in the high-speed region at altitudes where it holds the speed advantage.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Vermillion

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Fw190-D9 Turn Times?
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2001, 05:06:00 PM »
cc Hohun, I understand that much  :)

I even understand how to test induced drag in a constant G spiral dive after Wells explained it too me.

Its having the historical data to test against that is the hard part  :)

Offline HoHun

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Fw190-D9 Turn Times?
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2001, 05:48:00 PM »
Hi Vermillion,

I've not seen any turn rate data as apparently, noone at Focke-Wulf ever was interested in turn rates :-)

Here's a historic data point from a Focke-Wulf chart:

The Fw 190D-9 climbed at 19 m/s from 2000 to 4000 m at an indicated air speed of 275 km/h at that war emergency power setting which yielded 1900 HP at sea level.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Apar

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Fw190-D9 Turn Times?
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2001, 03:43:00 AM »
Quote
At low speed, the better power loading of the Fw 190D-9 should beat the P-51D easily. The P-51d could be better in the high-speed region at altitudes where it holds the speed advantage.

At low speeds the P51D will beat U (especially the likes of Shane, and other good P51D pilots). Above 20k the P51D outperforms the 190d9 in AC maneuvers. At 15-20k the Dora is really good IMHO.

I had quite a few fights at 15 - 20k with P51D's and had good results in those fights. That doesn't necessarily say everything on the aircraft performance but I found out one thing for sure. If the P51D chooses to run by diving towards the deck, I've been able to slowly catch up and finish the job. Unfortunately it takes along time to do so and that I'm exposing myself to other attacks by being on the deck chasing somebody (target-fixation gets you killed, applies very often).

On dancing a 190d9 with a p51D at 15 - 20k using vertical maneuvers, I think the 190d9 is a very good match for the p51D as long as you hold a high speed. I don't try to R&D a P51D with almost same E.
Even though the P51 can engage flaps way earlier than the 190d9 it is likely that the p51d will turn too fast into blackout (where he will lose U if U're not predictable!) and he will bleed E too doing so. The main advantage comes from high roll rate which enables you to change direction in extremely fast without loosing much E. Don't go into flat turn fights, because that is not the strongest point of the Dora and it is too predictable. In general, most of my kills don't come from getting on somebody's six but from deflection shots, which U get plenty oppertunities for in the Dora too.

The only times where I get into problems against the P51D in a Dora is when I end up in a turn fight on the deck where I can't use 3 dimensions to fight (I try to avoid low and slow fights in Dora).

[ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: Apar ]

Offline Naudet

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Fw190-D9 Turn Times?
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2001, 11:24:00 AM »
Apar, in those slow and low fights, i discovered that the distanse is a main issue.

If u r real close (<300 better <250) and co-speed with a P51, a lag-turn will do it. Especially if the P51 turn very tight, and u fly the "long way". It seems quite often that the P51 pilot losses track of u, cause u fell below his 6. when he than straights out to search for u, just pull hard and come up, and fill him up.

If the distnace is greater u actually can try a hard lead turn or better a fast lead high yo-yo, should normally bring u directly on his dead 6.

If

Offline HoHun

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Fw190-D9 Turn Times?
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2001, 02:22:00 PM »
Hi Apar,

>>At low speed, the better power loading of the Fw 190D-9 should beat the P-51D easily. The P-51d could be better in the high-speed region at altitudes where it holds the speed advantage.

>At low speeds the P51D will beat U (especially the likes of Shane, and other good P51D pilots). Above 20k the P51D outperforms the 190d9 in AC maneuvers. At 15-20k the Dora is really good IMHO.

Slight misunderstanding: I was just talking about linear acceleration or climb rate, not about tactics and manoeuvres :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)