H-1 saw combat--check yer sources

[Westy]

"I personally will accept you guys decision either way."

 Sorry Verm. I don't. The P-51H was deployed.

 The P-51H counts in my book. Just as the DO-335 would count in my eyes. It never saw combat either but as far as I am aware it was under production - so what if the P-51H, F7F and F8F had the "deployed status" advantage over it  

 -Westy  (feeling............... PERKY!)

 

[M.C.202]

brady said:                
>...and if these aircraft were built and were in part interdicted do to combat prior to their arrival at their intended combat unit does this not qualify as combat?
> Brady
and Staga said:
> Dont you think those bombed planes too "saw" some combat

So use in a combat zone by at least one airframe, or damage or delay caused by enemy action make a plane a valid choice?

Soon a list of aircraft that fit that "rule set" :-)


------------------
M.C.202
Dino in Reno

[M.C.202]

This whole concept is based on "if it did not fly in combat (as I define combat) before the end of WWII, it does not belong in this game".

If you use the "must have historicaly flown combat", will you also live with the historic use ratio of types?

Out of all fighter action in late 1945, what was the % of Ta 152 flights? That would give, say 10 flights a year total for a Ta 152 to be split between all players in AH?

Over Germany, what % of flights were in the latest new and improved models in historic use? I hope you like flying a well used Bf109G or FW190.

How about living with the historic fuel and spare parts supply?

Once we leave history behind in ANY way, then the question of "game balance" is the most important issue.

Part of this is the FACT the the Allies held back on rushing new types to the front, as there was NO NEED to do so in real history.

Allowing the use of an aircraft that had less affect on the war than bad luck in the landing pattern did is BALANCED by allowing the use of mass produced aircraft that had been held back for historic reasons.

It's a games theory thing. That's why the U.S. does not have the A-Bomb as a standard load-out. Same reason the B-29 is not a mid '44 standard bird in the game. Or the B-36 as a mid '45 pick.

I would like to see early war birds, but if the "what if" stuff is allowed, it should work for all sides.

I would love to see a post Jan '45 "Uber Bird" area, with ALL the birds that had metal cut before the end of '45. But I don't think it would be anything but a game. Quake with real names. Nothing to do with WWII.



------------------
M.C.202
Dino in Reno

[Vermillion]

Brady, there were less than 50 production Ta152 of all makes and models produced, and around half of those were lost to landing accidents or ground attack by allied fighters. Ask Nath if you don't believe me. We can produce all the werk numbers even.

There were some additional prototypes, but even most of those were older 190 models adapted to test the new equipment. I would estimate maybe 30 all told without looking.

So even if you count prototypes, its around 75-80, and thats probably a little on the high side.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[M.C.202]

Birds that the O.K. to use by the standards set by others earler.


Ambrosini S.A. 207     Three used by Italy.

Reggiane 2005          48 built, used in combat

Macchi MC 206          Demolished by bombing

XB-40                  Tested in combat

Meteor I and III       Used in a combat zone, with losses in action

F7F                    used in a combat zone, losses due to shipping and training losses

P-51H                  used in a combat zone, losses due to shipping and training losses

Want more?



------------------
M.C.202
Dino in Reno

[brady]

  I see your point gentleman,and please correct me if I am wrong but is not the eventual/probable inclusion of the Ta-152H-1 only as a "Perk" plane and not as part of the normal plane set?
  Really the Dora 9 would be a far more balanced choice for adoption,and would certainly meat your criteria.(although a couple of the Italian plane in the above list got me a drooling )

       Brady

[Vermillion]

Nath your right, the H0 would be nice to have as long as you kept it in its environment. Similar to both the P38 and P47 it would rock at higher altitudes, but suffer down low.

As I have said before, performancewise, I think you could actually add a H0 to the current planeset without it being a "perk", and It wouldn't be unbalancing either.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[M.C.202]

Brady said:
> I see your point gentleman,and please correct me if I am wrong but is not the
> eventual/probable inclusion of the Ta-152H-1 only as a "Perk" plane and not as part
> of the normal plane set?

Yep, but there was a rough protest of the P-51H as a perk set plane. My problem is
not adding the Ta 152 as a perk, but in wanting to add it, and keep out aircraft
that would even the field.

> Really the Dora 9 would be a far more balanced choice for adoption,and would certainly meat your criteria.
> (although a couple of the Italian plane in the above list got me a drooling  )

> Brady

The Dora is a real choice for a '45 plane set. I would not find falt in that.

The small number built of some of the Italian birds is a real problem. I would love to see
some of them, but they were just not enough of them built. :-(

A dream arena would be for birds that did not get to fly in heavy use (or at all), rotating in six month sets.
P-40Q, Ta 154, F7F, Ta152, M.B.5, Vampire, P-80, He162, He 100, Go229, B-36,
B-35, S.A.I.403, S.A.I. S.S.4, Piaggio 109..... Early war, mid war,
late war, all of them and lots of fun.

------------------
M.C.202
Dino in Reno

[This message has been edited by M.C.202 (edited 10-28-2000).]

[brady]

 Yes it's the dream of the little boy in me,you know the one who is all kinds of excited to get off work and race home to hop in the "dream machine".I feel your pain Dino i would like to see some of the Italian planes u mentioned, the "Centauro" Is a favorite of mine.
  I would also like to think that some of the other "exotic" planes would be available in the "Perk" plane set:
  Ar 234
  Me 163
  He 162(i have a couple sources that say that they did fly them operationally)
  Baka

     Brady
 

[Westy]

 More later. this is turning into a really good discussion. But here's some info on TWO P-80A's the USAAF used in Italy 1944-45:

"Ser #'s 44-83028 and 44-83029 were shipped to the Mediterranean.  They actually flew some operational sorties, but they never encountered any enemy aircraft.  Both of them fortunately managed to survive their tour of duty in Europe, but one of them crashed on August 2, 1945 after returning to the USA.  The other one ended its useful life as a pilotless drone."

 

   -Westy  

[SnakeEyes]

The same old tired arguments... "here's why my plane should be in the game, and yours shouldn't... blah blah blah."  Give it a rest Nath.

The P-51H and the Ta-152H are contemporaries (and the F8F for that matter)... they all went into production in early 1945.  The only difference is that the Luftwaffe was *so* desparate that they sent aircraft immediately to groups for use in combat without familiarization training.

Accept the facts... these aircraft are all contemporaries, were all produced in relatively small numbers prior to the end of the war, and were all statistically insignificant as a percentage of the aircraft produced.  They should either be modeled as contemporaries (because the community is interested in fulfilling some "what if?" dreams) regardless of which saw combat and which didn't; or, they should all be excluded as aircraft that don't meet the standard of being produced in numbers and not having any impact.  

Anything else is bias of wanting "my planes" and the exclusion of "the other guy's planes" and nothing more.

------------------
SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[This message has been edited by SnakeEyes (edited 10-28-2000).]

[Nath-BDP]

Sorry SnakeEyes, P51H never saw combat thus it shouldn't be in AH.

Maybe the US would have put the P51H into action if they knew that it would be under critasism by virtual Luftwaffes to be accepted into a game. : )

Btw the Ta 152 began production in late 44.

Would you like some of the REAL LW stuff that was produced but never saw action in WW2?  

Ruhstall-Kramer X4(saw limited action against B17s and B24s in prototype stage)

Me 109K-14(debatable if it saw action or not)

He 177

He 162

blah, blah, blah...

[SnakeEyes]

I think your last comment sums up what I think about your opinion.

 

blah blah blah

All you are expressing is a bias of wanting "my planes" and the exclusion of "the other guy's planes."  Period.  

My prediction:  If the Ta152 or similar aircraft are modeled, you can bet you'll be seeing P-51Hs, F8Fs, P-47Ms, etc., no matter how much you'd like to create a situation of relative inequity.


------------------
SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[Nath-BDP]

Nope, I along with several other people beleive that having a plane that saw NO COMBAT in World War II in Aces High is ludacris.

[Nath-BDP]

just FYI Snakeeye, this thread was started to prove that there was a H-1 that saw combat because Verm said there wasn't, not about P51Hs.