H-1 saw combat--check yer sources

[Staga]

so did it or not ?

...too tired to read all those tiny little alphabets...  

[brady]

  Help me out hear people,their were other Ta-152 equipped units were their not?If memory serves they were assigned to some Me 262 units as defensive fighters to protect them while taking off and landing.
   Also my reference books show between 150 and 170 of them were produced.

  Also the He 177 saw a considerable amount of service in the west and the east,and the later a-5 variant was almost "BUG" free.
  Another of my books states that the Ta-154 was used in combat by a couple different night fighter units in late 44.
  Lastly numbers produced is really a relative figure.Signafant numbers for Japan would be a preproduction batch in the US.

  Brady

[juzz]

A grand sum total of 3 did.

[LJK Raubvogel]

Thats 3 more than the P-51H.  

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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps

[SnakeEyes]

I'm having all kinds of problems connecting to the 'Net right now, apparently my ISP is doing maintenance... but hopefully this will get through:

See pages 105 and 114 of Dietmar Harmann's Ta-152 book.  On page 105 it states that Green 9 (Work # 150 168) was last flown by Willi Reschke.  While it doesn't state the work # earlier in the page it states that on April 24th Willi shot down 2 Yak-9s.  It then states that, "This Ta 152 was last flown by Willi Reschke. The Ta 152 H-1, now designated Air Min 11, was tested by ... Eric Brown... "  Moreover, it goes on to state that "the British Experts did not succeed in evaluating 150 168's performance with GM-1 and MW-50."

Based on that, I'd say that the H-1 did fly combat, and that it did indeed score at least 2 kills.

Of course, that is assuming that 150 168 really was an H-1.  But it is certainly strong evidence.

You see Nath, some people actually can be intellectually honest.

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[Nath-BDP]

huh?

What did you just do? Write a summary of my original post?

WTG!

[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 10-28-2000).]

[SnakeEyes]

Nah, just saw some pictures where you mentioned that the caption states it was an H-1.  Didn't really read anything, as the scans were larger than 1024x768 (hate that).  Kinda funny actually... in any event, I'd have to say I pretty much agree with you that it saw combat.

The later commentary seemed to imply that the H-1 mighta woulda coulda sorta flew combat... frankly, I think Harmann's info is pretty straightforward... it did.  The only thing that would disprove this is information that 150 168 wasn't a Ta-152H1 (which might explain the failure to test the MW50 and GM1).

The other reason I didn't read the scans in detail is that I don't really care whether the aircraft saw combat or not... I want them all... Do335, F7F, P61, F8F, Ta152, P47M, P51H, Ar234, you name it...  if the aircraft was developed during the era, that's really all that matters to me.  Hell, the first P-51H production model flew on February 3, 1945... more than enough time to see combat if the US had followed the "holy toejam we gonna lose the war, send it to the front lines now" approach of the Luftwaffe.  That's good enough for me, and I suspect it will be good enough for anyone at HTC who considers modeling these latewar a/c.  And the same holds true for the following:

Do335 - 40 built, first prototype flew October 1943.
P-47M - 162 built (from memory), and these did see combat in the last two or three months of the war with the 56th FG.
F7F-1 - 34 built, delivery beginning April 1944.  F7F-2N - 30 built, 1944.  F7F-3 - 189 built prior to VJ-Day.
F8F-1 - 765 built out of original contract for 2,023.  Production deliveries began February 1945.  Began equipping VF-19 on May 21, 1945.  On CVs on the way to Japan on VJ-Day.


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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[This message has been edited by SnakeEyes (edited 10-29-2000).]

[brady]

  As I posted earlier, the Ta-152 "green 9" flown by Eric Brown was not tested with MW50 or GM-1 because hey did not have either on hand at the test establishment,it say's so in his book Wing of the Luftwaffe. in other words the plane had these systems on board,they just did not have the juice for them.

      Brady

   Are u sure their were not some serving with JV 44?

[M.C.202]

brady said:
> Yes it's the dream of the little boy in me,you know the one who is all kinds of
> excited to get off work and race home to hop in the "dream machine".I feel your pain Dino
> I would like to see some of the Italian planes u mentioned, the "Centauro" Is a favorite of mine.
> I would also like to think that some of the other "exotic" planes would be available in the "Perk" plane set:
Ar 234
Me 163
He 162(i have a couple sources that say that they did fly them operationally)
Baka

> Brady


Brady, I think that you and I, and Snakeyes and bunch of others would love a "what if" arena. Not as our regular meal, but as dessert.

How about a '41 to mid '43 game with all the early oddballs... I'd love to take an S.A.I.
S.S.4 or Piaggio P.119 up against bombers, or shipping for that matter. Or a S.A.I. 207 or
403 for some real high speed dive hit & run action, 580+mph in tests. Not bad for 750hp
in a 5,324 lb (loaded) wooden airplane :-)

The FIAT G55 is one that I feel is ok for full release, not uber but a style of it's own.


                                                                                                                                                                             

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M.C.202
Dino in Reno

[SnakeEyes]

I, personally, am not a fan of early/mid-war oddballs... but I can respect the fact that others might want 'em.

I'm a latewar uberdweebie lover.  

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[brady]

  Yes, yes ,yes to them all ,if your going to dream go all they way !
  I like the idea of early and late war their are some great planes and possibilities their.
  I would love to see another plane added for Italy.
   G.55
   Z.1018
   P.108B
   
   Brady

[Westy]

 Anyone have some scans of the Italian fighters being talked about? I'd love to see them!!
 
 -Westy

[Vermillion]

 

Accept the facts... these aircraft are all contemporaries, were all produced in relatively small numbers prior to the end of the war, and were all statistically insignificant as a percentage of the aircraft produced. They should either be modeled as contemporaries (because the community is interested in fulfilling some "what if?" dreams) regardless of which saw combat and which didn't; or, they should all be excluded as aircraft that don't meet the standard of being produced in numbers and not having any impact.

Anything else is bias of wanting "my planes" and the exclusion of "the other guy's planes" and nothing more

Amen SnakeEyes!

Thats what I have been saying for a while now, and it just doesn't seem to get thru.

So Nath, your telling me that 3 aircraft that saw combat in the last couple of weeks DOES meet your criteria? You never answered me.

If so, I don't want to hear another -1C thread out of you or the Luftwaffe contingent ever again, and I want my Yak3 (vk107) at the same time as the Ta152.


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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Nath-BDP]

I did answer you.

and btw don't put me in the same class as the "LW contigent", I have never whined on this BBS about 1Cs or Nikis... they don't bother me--the only thing is that fighitng only nikis and 1cs is boring.

[J_A_B]

Arguing whether a late-war plane saw combat or not is irrevelant.  Neither the P-51H nor the Ta-152H-1 had any statistical importance in the outcome of the war--but that isn't the point.  

It is WAS the point, then the ONLY use for the Ta-152 would be to re-create the ONE time it saw combat.  Which, of course, would be silly.

Using "whether it saw combat" is a good-natured but misguided criteria for adding a late-war plane, because it ignores the "what-if" factor.  The REAL reason to add a late-war plane, is to be able to act out what would have happened had the war continued.  

"What if" Germany had held out longer?

"What if" there was no A-bomb and Japan had to be invaded?

And here it becomes clear WHY whether a plane saw combat doesn't matter--they would be used to act out situations which never happened.  Nobody wants to add the Ta-152 for the sole purpose of re-creating the bombing and strafing of their factories.  People want to see how they would have performed had fate happened differently.

Likewise, the P-51H would be essential for any "what-if" scenario involving the Axis surviving longer than it did.

The real debate isn't whether any specific plane saw combat.  It is whether you want to able to act out battles which never happened (but could have).


Personally I do.


We've already done the battle of Britain in AirWarrior and WarBirds soooooo many times; we've done Ploesti and Guadacanal and Iwo Jima and North Africa and Kursk and pretty much every other big air battle that ever happened.   But, have we ever done "OPERATION OLYMPIC"?

This is the chance to do something truly new.

 

J_A_B