Author Topic: Jumpin on the P-38 bandwagon  (Read 7333 times)

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Jumpin on the P-38 bandwagon
« Reply #75 on: December 05, 2001, 07:54:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by laz:
renegade.... are you talking real life or game situation?    :confused:

On which point(s)?
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Jumpin on the P-38 bandwagon
« Reply #76 on: December 05, 2001, 09:02:00 PM »
The later P-38J and L models had 55 or 60 gallon tanks in the leading edges of the wings. At the settings I stated earlier, the P-38 had a greater range than the P-51, with a fuel consumption rate of about 4.9 to 5.2 mpg, with a cruise speed of around 280 to 320 MPH. I'll look up some other fuel consumption data to verify that.

 Actually, if you will look again I quoted Captain Arthur Heiden, who flew BOTH the P-38 AND the P-51 in Europe in the 20th FG. He and several others said that if you took off in England and headed directly for the continent, you could not reach mission cruise altitude before landfall in a P-51, but the P-38 would do that with ease. He told me that repeatedly, it is printed in varoious locations, and backed up by another pilot who flew both planes, Captain Stan Richardson Jr., who has also told me the same thing, and been quoted in print, and to my knowledge, no one has ever refuted this, at least not with any proof.

 Sure, you can compare the lightly armored and armed P-51B against the P-38, but most people speak of the P-51D. And the P-51B was judged by all to be short of guns and armor. Sure it was slightly faster and lighter. Comparing a fully laden and outfitted plane against a less armed and armored plane with less than a full load of fuel is not an honest and fair comparison.

 Those numbers are the Lockheed and Allison numbers for the P-38L. The rating was at 64" of manifold pressure, and the WEP power was 1725 horsepower at 28,700 feet. Military power was 1425 at 54" at 29,000 feet. The turbo speed was oil regulated.

  As far as turbochargers go, their speed is controlled by the amount of air taken in by the engine, the RPM, the regulated boost level, and the load. So long as you maintain the same inlet manifold pressure, the same load, and the same engine RPM, turbo speed does not increase. It is easy to figure, X amount of air and fuel is required to achieve Y amount of exhaust pressure at a given load and RPM. Since turbo speed and boost are regulated, so long as you do not put more air and fuel in, and you do not turn more RPM, then no more exhaust pressure is available to spin the turbo faster. I drive and race a turbocharged car, and I've learned turbocharging the hard way.

  The way to overspeed the turbo in a P-38 was to either let the oil get too cold and congeal in the regulator, causing it to fail to operate, or to lose dynamic braking on the prop and over rev the engine. Then, the hoses would blow off of the intercooler, the intercooler would explode, or the turbo would overspeed past 24,600 RPM, and explode.

 Where is the data that for this P-51B that was able to fly 400 MPH at 40K? No pilot I've ever spoken with or seen quoted said he could get a P-51 B or D over 37,000 feet. For that to be possible, a P-51 would only lose 37 MPH from 26,900 feet to 40,000 feet. No engine with a crank driven supercharger with less than two stages and three speeds could maintain the required horsepower over that wide an altitude range. It simply is not possible, even with every modern advance, for a crank driven supercharger to provide that much boost over that wide an altitude range. What you are saying is that a Merlin engine could maintain in excess of 1700 horsepower from 6,250 feet to 40,000 feet. No other plane equipped with a Merlin of any sort was able to maintain that power level over that altitude range. Even if you figure reduction of drag in thinner air, and figure it far in favor of your argument, and then ignore the fact that there is nowhere near as much lift at that altitude, it is just too far out of line with everything else flying. As a matter of fact, I have not seen any plane driven by a piston engine and a prop that could cover the altitudes you claim with less than a 40 MPH spread in speed. Certainly without a turbocharger. Air density changes at altitudes have far too great an effect on internal combustion engines.

 In fact, the Packard Merlin was rated at 1720 horsepower at 67" of manifold pressure, at an altitude of 6,250 feet. At the same pressure, the power drops to 1420 horsepower by only 18,000 feet. That's a drop of 300 horsepower in 12,000 feet. Another 12,000 feet puts us at 30,000 feet. If you lose 300 horsepower in the first 12,000 feet, what do you expect to lose in the next 12,000 feet? And in the next 10,000 feet you'll need to get to 40,000 feet? At the rate it is lost in the first 12,000 feet, you'd lose another 500 horsepower by 40,000 feet. Now, you think a plane with barely 900 horsepower is going to fly 400 MPH? I don't, but I'm just a hillbilly redneck.

 I worked on Allison engines for a few years in the seventies and eighties, and was able to talk with guys who worked on both the Allison and the Packard Merlin. The same story came straight from the men who worked on them. Only the turbocharged Allison had good power above 33,000 feet.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline bolillo_loco

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Jumpin on the P-38 bandwagon
« Reply #77 on: December 05, 2001, 09:34:00 PM »
It was stated earlier that the mustang was able to dive to mach .86, I thought I read in americas hundred thousand where they took a mustang and dove it to mach .77 then .78 etc and at mach .81 they decided it was no longer safe to dive the mustang any faster and at mach .81 the mustang sustained considerable airframe damage and had to be written off. mach .75 is listed in the manual for max safe dive speed. mach .675 is listed in the manual for the 38 and states it may be exceeded by 20 mph ias and is considered safe. with dive flaps tony levier stated mach .72 was completely safe with dive flaps and the plane recovers all by itself, these were dives from altitudes above 30,000ft also. mach .745 or .74 w/o flaps was stated to be terminal in warren bodies book for the 38.

it was also stated that the generally acepted 3,500fpm initial rate of climb for the mustang was taken from a mustang that weighed 9,000 lbs, that is about 1,200 - 1,500 lbs lighter than max weight at full internal stores. 3,800 fpm for the lightning is also widely published and this is the lowest rate of climb I have ever seen published for the 38J/L and this rate of climb is for a plane at 17,600lbs take off weight.

when looking at military climb rates for 51D and 38J/L there is about 700-800 fpm difference in favor of the lightning with both planes taking off at similarly loaded weights ie full internal stores minus fuel burned for take off and warm up. two other books credit the 38 with 3,900 fpm @ 5,000 ft so initial would be higher and the other lists 4,000 fpm @ 5,000 ft both books being warren bodies and martin caidens book.

I too have read this in a book on mustangs, I think it was written by Roger Freeman (Classic Publications) and it did in fact state the below.

To quote Captain Arthur Heiden 20th FG 8th USAAF, "You could reach cruise altitude from England before landfall in a P-38, while in the P-51, you still had considerable climbing left to do." I'd prefer to arrive to the fight at altitude and speed, with plenty of internal fuel left to fight and go home.

that book is a good one for listing all the problems that the mustang had. there was a point when the 51 was limited to max dive speed of 450 mph tas due to a few accidents where wings were shed due to landing gear doors and ammunition doors blowing off and causing the entire wing to fail. there seemed to be a lot of structural failures in the mustang when it was flown at very high speeds and very high g loads. there was a 20 lb bob weight added to the control mechanism for the tail surfaces to make the stick heavier to curb over aggressive pilots and lessen structural failures. the book states that the bob weight was not a cure for the problem, but lessened the accidents.


also on the critical  mach numbers, isnt there an naca test where a P-51B was used and it stated that critical mach varied with wing skin condition? flat paint, chipped paint, scuffs on natural metal finish, shinny metal finsh and dull metal finish all affected critical mach number? so is the mach .75 and higher figure taken from a plane with highly polished natural metal finish or from one with flat paint?

sorry I got long winded, its a character defect of mine.

[ 12-05-2001: Message edited by: bolillo_loco ]

[ 12-05-2001: Message edited by: bolillo_loco ]

Offline Sundog

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Jumpin on the P-38 bandwagon
« Reply #78 on: December 05, 2001, 09:44:00 PM »
Wow! Great thread. Alot of good data here. Hoever, being as anal retentive as I am, I have to clarify something. Critical Mach is not the Mach number at which flight controls be come in-effective (Although that generally happens as a result of exceeeding the critical mach number on World War II aircraft). Critical Mach number is the Mach number at which shock waves begin to form on the aircraft (i.e.-it is the beginning of the transonic regime for that particular aircrafts' flight envelope). As such, it will lead to all kinds of negative effects on World War Two aircraft. Some of this is due to flow separation (which can also induce vibrations if it separates and re-attaches or impinges on surfaces downstream) and if the plane forms shock waves fast (i.e., usually large curvature on the upper surface of the wing as on the P-38) this will cause the shock waves to form rapidly on the wing and when you get shockwaves on the wing then the A.C. (Aerodynamic Center) will shift rearward from approximately 25% MAC to 50% MAC in which case the horizontal tail is now to small to lift the nose, etc. Hey, Zig, do you have the tail volume calculations handy? It's been awhile since I have seen those. Might be a bit illuminating here. Anyway, just wanted to be clear on what critical Mach number is.

Based on everything you guys posted here, do you any of you have info on loiter times? In my book on the JV-44, Galland said that during the last year of the war, they really hated the P-38 the most because of it's ability to spend so much time loitering over the German airfields and keeping them capped. So I was just curious as to how the time on station of the P-38 compares to that of the P-51 series. You guys have any info on that? Thanks.

Offline gripen

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Jumpin on the P-38 bandwagon
« Reply #79 on: December 05, 2001, 11:51:00 PM »
Renegade Savage,
I checked all sources here at home and I could not find noone claiming that climb speed during on way to Germany was a problem (including Mr. Heiden). The P-51 cruised and climbed at faster speed (lower climb angle) than the P-38. It is pretty natural that  it covers longer distance while climbing to the given altitude. Same way I can argue that the P-51 reached continent faster than the P-38.

The P-51B (and the C) with fuselage tank was the major model in the ETO. The data I have is from a USAF document (Tactical Employment Trials North American P-51B-1, Army Air Forces Board Report, 12th February 1944). I have compared performance of the P-51B-1 to the P-38J-1 when loaded for at least similar range and with engine ratings which are authorized by the USAF. Also my numbers for the V-1650-3 powered P-51B are supported by the tests by the RAF and RR. The V-1650-3 was an excellent high altitude engine and also reliable, same can't be said about some other engines.

The V-1710-F30R/L was rated by Allison, USAF and Lockheed for WEP 1600hp, 60"@3000rpm with the grade 100/130 fuel (AN-F-28). In addition manufacturer rated the F30R/L for the WEP 1725, 60"@3200rpm with grade 150 fuel, this rating was never authorized by the USAF for service use. Also it should be noted that the standard USAF late war fuel was grade 100/130, there might have been very limited quantities of other fuels (grade 150, grade 140, grade 115/145) available for special purposes. Actually this has been discused here before and so far noone has come up with the clear evidence that those higher ratings had been used in the large scale service (and how about blade tip speeds at 3200rpm?). BTW how critical altitude for the rating you claim is the same as for the 60"@3000rpm with RAM (should be lower?).

About overspeeding supercharger you are wrong, air density decreases when altitude increases so speed of the turbo increase when altitude raises. (thanks HoHun, I did not even note that error, we are generating far too much tetxt...)

bolillo_loco,
I'm refering Wright field tests on P-51D by Major F. Borsodi. He reached mach 0,86 (instrumented) in the dive from 40k and actually he even took pictures of the shock wave in his tests. The critical mach number is the speed where compressebility effects start as Sundog noted.

gripen

[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: gripen ]

Offline Guppy

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Jumpin on the P-38 bandwagon
« Reply #80 on: December 06, 2001, 02:46:00 AM »
Sundog,

The P-38's endurance was superb. Missions in excess of 2,000 miles resulted in ten or more hours in the cockpit, placing considerable demands on the pilot. This required 300-gallon drop tanks, which were not available in the ETO; with the smaller 165-gallon tanks, the P-38's endurance would be roughly equal to the P-51's at seven hours or so.

Anyway, are you sure Galland said the P-38? By 1945 the Lightning had been phased out of 8th AF, and was on its way out of 9th AF as well due to shortages of replacements and spares (most likely diverted to the Med and Pacific). Only one group, the 474th FG, retained their P-38s until the end of hostilities after petitioning to keep them.

Moreover, Galland was never very complimentary of the Lightning, calling it a "mistake" and repeatedly comparing it with the Bf 110. While I think the bulk of evidence is against his viewpoint (particularly from the other theatres), he never seems to have wavered from his views.

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #81 on: December 06, 2001, 03:41:00 AM »
Hi again, Hilts!

>The P-51 was easier to fly in that respect. But there was no great disparity in cruise speeds, and if you had to fly with the bombers, then the bombers were the limit anyway.

Fighter operations were complex enough that much of the time, fighters were not tied to the bombers as cover was typically divided into outbound cover, target cover and return cover missions. Much of the time, fighters were cruising on their own, and when they were with the bombers, they'd cruise at high speed too to be prepared for action, zigzagging to stay with the bombers.

>Also loaded out for the same mission, the P-38 could climb out towards enemy territory directly, where as the P-51 required you either reach enemy territory with lower altitude, or burn fuel circling while you climbed.

Since fighter missions were scheduled as described above, this was no problem operationally.

>These compare true air speeds at WEP, 67" of manifold pressure for the P-51, and 64" for the P-38.

Do you mean to suggest that 64" manifold pressure was an operational standard for the P-38?

>Below 20,000 feet, and above 30,000 feet the P-38 was a better ride.

Here's a quote from a recent interview with P-38 ace Gerald Brown on Dogfighter.com:

"DF: So how did the P-38 match up against the Luftwaffe? [Interviewer’s note: Gerald Brown flew the P-38J and H models in ETO combat.]

GB: I would say that under 25,000 it matched up well, but around 25,000 - if they had the advantage - they       could pick us off. You see, at high altitude the P-38 had a liability problem as it would compress in a dive.

[...]

DF: What was a better fighter plane? The P-38 or the P-51?

GB: I liked both! But the P-51 was a better aircraft against the Germans. Early on the German, like a street bully, could pick a fight and then break it off against the P-38. He couldn’t do that with a P-51. With comparable pilots, the P-51 will come out on top."

>There were several things the USAAF and the War Production Board refused to allow Lockheed to use. Nearly every other front line fighter had them.

This is probably not the answer you're looking for, but the truth may well be that nearly every other front line fighter was considered superior to the P-38. (That's not my personal opinion, but the USAAF leadership's!) Here's a telling remark from General Doolittle: "The P-38 was a second-rate fighter when compared to the P-47 and P-51". (General Spaatz seems to have shared his opinion.)

Since they considered the P-38's problems unsurmountable, I'd speculate that the low critical Mach number of the airframe - which couldn't be increased without designing an entirely new aircraft - was the basis for their opinion. A low critical Mach number meant the P-38 was hamstrung at high speeds as well as at high altitude. Speed and altitude, however, were the cornerstones of WW2 fighter tactics.

>So long as you maintain the same inlet manifold pressure, the same load, and the same engine RPM, turbo speed does not increase.

As static air pressure decreases with increasing altitude, the pressure differential over the turbocharger increases too, introducing the risk of turbocharger overspeeding. Not a factor in auto racing, I admit :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Guppy

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Jumpin on the P-38 bandwagon
« Reply #82 on: December 06, 2001, 04:40:00 AM »
This is probably not the answer you're looking for, but the truth may well be that nearly every other front line fighter was considered superior to the P-38. (That's not my personal opinion, but the USAAF leadership's!)

Yes. In a very specific context--the high-altitude escort role, in the European Theatre. This is the context in which the P-38 performed by far the most poorly out of all the environments it fought in. While the 8th AF ETO record is certainly important, I think it would be a mistake to draw a complete conclusion based on European escort experience alone.

General Kenney of the 5th Air Force (Pacific Theatre) went out of his way to get P-38s for his fighter groups, preferring them to P-51s. 5th AF's premier air-to-air squadrons continued to fly P-38s until the end of the war.

As previously mentioned, the 9th AF's 474th FG petitioned explicitly to retain their Lightnings rather than re-equip (obviously, with either P-47s or P-51s--probably the former).

Also note how Gerald Brown makes a clear distinction between the P-38's relative abilities above and below 25,000 ft. I've seen that far too often for it to be a coincidence.

"Corky" Smith, 12-kill P-38 ace with the 80th FS "Headhunters":

"I flew the P-51 after the war over a two year period. A good ship--but could only better the P-38 at altitudes over 20,000 feet. It was well suited for the European theater where high altitude combat was predominant..."

Stan Richardson Jr (who, like Gerald Brown, flew with the 55th FG), as quoted by C.C. Jordan:

"My closing comment in this note to you is relative to the capabilities of the P-38 vs the P-51 in simulated combat.  Below 25,000' I'd have 'waxed' a '51 every time.  One advantage the P-51 had was a wonderful gunsight (the K-14). The gunsights in the '38 were very basic.  Kentucky windage helped a lot!"

[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: Guppy ]

Offline gripen

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« Reply #83 on: December 06, 2001, 07:17:00 AM »
Here are ratings for the V-1650-3 from the P-51D manual (some P-51Ds had the V-1650-3 instead the V-1650-7).

WER 67"@3000rpm lo 1595hp 11700ft no RAM, 17000ft with RAM
WER 67"@3000rpm hi 1295hp 23200ft no RAM, 28800ft with RAM
MIL 61"@3000rpm lo 1450hp 13700ft no RAM, 19800ft with RAM
MIL 61"@3000rpm hi 1190hp 25600ft no RAM, 31200ft with RAM
CON 46"@2700rpm lo 1120hp 17500ft no RAM, 20500ft with RAM
CON 46"@2700rpm hi 940hp 29500ft no RAM, 34400ft with RAM

Also manufacturer claims that the Merlin 61 (RR equivalent for the V-1650-3) could maintain sealevel atmospheric pressure MAP (about 30") to an altitude of more than 40k.

gripen

[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: gripen ]

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #84 on: December 06, 2001, 09:39:00 AM »
Yes, Galland was critical of EARLY P-38's. Galland's opinion was formed when the P-38 had no dive flaps and the majority of pilots in the 8th AF were relatively green. A green pilot in a plane as hard to fly as the P-38 was probably was an easy target. And if the P-38 pilot did gain the advantage, the German could dive and run. Consider that when Galland met John Lowell (a pilot of equal skill) in a later P-38, Galland said Lowell damn near killed him, and Lowell only broke off to go home for fuel. Hearing Lowell describe the fight, Galland said "You son of a squeak, you Golly-geened near killed me that day!" Several pilots of comparable skill in P-38's shot down noted German aces. So, the 8th AF still considered the P-38 to be second rate, even when the P-38 with a pilot of good skill could and often did shoot down the very best Germany had to offer.

 Once again, regarding turbochargers, only the exhaust OUTLET and the intake INLET are exposed to atmoshperic pressure. Pressure on the exhaust (turbine) side is exerted by engine exhaust. This is what drives the turbocharger. The intake side (impeller, or compressor) pressurizes the intake system. Whatever manifold pressure exists, is the resistance to the force exerted to spin the turbocharger by the exhaust pressure. The amount of exhaust pressure available to drive the turbocharger on an engine operating at a given RPM and intake manifold pressure is the same regardless of the altitude. If the intake manifold pressure and RPM do not change, then turbocharger speed will not change. If you could increase RPM, or lower the intake mandifold pressure, or increase the pressure on the INLET side of the impeller housing, then you could increase turbo speed.

In the case of the GE turbocharger on the Allison V1710 on the P-38, neither housing is variable, nor is the nozzle. The speed is regulated by an oil pressure regulator. So long as oil pressure and temperature remain within normal operating parameters, the regulator is capable of bypassing enough exhaust pressure to properly limit the RPM of the turbocharger. Load on the engine is controlled by prop pitch, and therefore, at maximum throttle, with autopitch, engine RPM and load are constant. The intake side of the turbocharger is exposed to manifold pressure, in this case you state 64". That is the load seen by the turbocharger exhaust turbine. At a constant load, constant manifold pressure, and constant RPM, a constant amount of exhaust gas pressure will be generated by the engine. This constant pressure will be applied to drive the turbine side of the turbocharger, which is directly coupled to the impeller or compressor side, which is still seeing a constant intake manifold pressure of 64". No load change exists, no force change exists, so no speed change occurs. Even if you remove the load from the engine, RPM will increase but exhaust pressure will decrease. Eventually, you can increase RPM enough to overspeed the turbocharger, if the engine will turn enough RPM. If the atmospheric pressure were to drop so low that the there was not enough air available to create 64" of manifold pressure, then the load on the impeller would decrease, and the turbo would overspeed. So yes, it is possible to overspeed the turbo at high altitudes, but I find no mention of this with the P-38 or the P-47, though both did use the same turbocharger. The only evidence of turbocharger overspeed comes together with a failure of another system or part of the system. The Curtiss prop could lose its dynamic brake and over rev the engine, eventually over reving the turbo. The oil cold be allowed to get so cold it congealed in the turbocharger regulator, renderring the regulator inoperative, eventually over boosting and possibly over reving the turbocharger.  

 The only factual evidence against the P-38 at high altitudes was the dive problem. With the dive flaps, the P-38 could and did fight at high altitudes, and was far less likely to spin out of a fight at high altitudes and was far easier to recover.

 The P-47 used the same turbocharger at the same range of altitudes. Further, the P-47 was tested in an overboost condition that exceeded all operating parameters of the engine and the turbocharger without a failure of either.

 That is why a turbocharger makes a better altitude compensating device than a crank driven supercharger.

  While the low critical Mach number was part of the equation, the fault the 8th AF found with the P-38 is that the early planes lacked automatic control of oil and coolant temperatures, and attempts to operate the engines at full power when they were too cold resulted in engine failures of one form or another. The early versions intercoolers were not efficient enough, and seperated the lead from the fuel, lowering the octane numbers. The requirement of Lockheed by the USAAF to use the Curtiss electric prop caused electrical and engine failures, compouned by poor maintenance training for the care of the electric props. Failure of the pilot to set the radiator doors resulted in overheating at full throttle.

 However, the J and later models changed all that. The dive flaps allowed the P-38 to chase in a dive, even though the 8th refused to change their instructions and policy. The automatic controls for the oil coolers, and radiators eliminated the cooling problems, and the turbocharger overspeed due to oil congealing in the regulator. The new core type intercoolers allowed the P-38 to use the full power of the Allison. The fact that the 8th AF refused to acknowledge and take full advantage of these changes is not an indictment of the plane, but a further indictment of Doolittle and Spatz, who were chastized or removed for failure to be agressive enough. The fact that the 5th, 9th, and 15th AF's were willing and able to take full advantage of them should be considered.

 The dive problems of the P-38, as noted by Gerald Brown, are well known, and acknowledged by bothe sides of the arguement. On the other hand, they are much less of a problem for the J and L models, by far the most numerous of the P-38 line. Further, several pilots were known to have figured out how to dive in a P-38 even without the dive flaps.

 One of the most critical errors of the 8th AF is their complete and dismal failure to acknowledge and make use of the experienced pilots who came from North Africa. The fact that the 8th AF completely failed to utilize the skills and experience of those pilots is another prime example of incompetence in the command staff of the 8th AF, and taints their opinion. Most pilots who came to the 8th from North Africa were very successful, and what they knew would have been invaluable to the new pilots, but the 8th AF chose to completely ignore this. The 8th was never known for the use of good tactics, just the use of massively overwhelming numbers. One need only witness their insanely stupid attempts to practice mass daylight precision bombing without fighter escort.

 The mere fact that the USAAF and especially the 8th AF hog tied the P-38 by denying Lockheed the use of the K-14 gunsite, the Hamilton Standard prop, and the Lockheed master combat control, and then complained bitterly about the performance of the P-38 is enough to tell even the casual observer there was something very wrong with the USAAF and the 8th in particular. The fact that the P-38 accounted for more Japanese planes than most other fighters combined should be enough to raise a few warning flags. As should the success of the P-38 over North Africa, Italy, and the Med., all with a different leadership than the 8th.

 When every other group is able to get completely superior performance and results from an aircraft, and most facing the same planes and some of the same pilots as the 8th, but the 8th can barely keep it in the air, and is critcized for heavy losses and poor leadership and tactics overall and in general, you have to look closely at the command staff of the 8th AF before you lay the blame solely on the P-38.

 One more little fact. The 5th AF had a guy named Major Thomas B. McGuire, a successful guy, with 38 victories. Now, Genreal Kenney and Colonel McDonald had Major McGuire write a manual to indoctrinate new pilots to the 5th AF and the Pacific theater of operations. It included the flight characteristics of every Japanese plane, the tactics of the pilots, and all the information necessary to allow the new pilot to enter combat with confidence and leave combat with success. Funny, the 8th AF had several successful P-38 pilots, but none were ever asked to write a manual to help the new pilots learn to fly their plane in combat, and give them the tactics and knowledge needed to win. The successful P-38 pilots of the 8th knew how to beat the Germans, and had moves to conquer the dive problems, and tactics that worked at high altitudes. But the knowledge was never passed on to all of the new pilots who were assigned the P-38. One more reason poor leadership in the command staff of the 8th AF was the primary and major reason for the less than stellar record of the P-38 in Europe with the 8th AF.

  Like the guy said, we are generating way too much text here. Time to move on.

[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: Renegade Savage ]
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #85 on: December 06, 2001, 10:14:00 AM »
I can't delete this entirely, just edit it to nothing.

[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: Renegade Savage ]
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Sundog

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« Reply #86 on: December 06, 2001, 10:23:00 AM »
FYI: The quote I was referencing by Galland was in the Classic Publications book on JV-44. They really didn't get into Gallands thoughts on the P-38 with respect to A2A combat. He was just making a statement about the USAAF's ability to loiter over Luftwaffe airfields for hours and cap them and he said the P-38s were usually the ones he disliked the most because they tended to CAP the luftwaffe bases the longest.

My 'guess' would be that P-38s were also used for this, because P-51s were escorting bombers and P-47s were being used for A2G. But that's just speculation on my part.

For reference:
Classic Publications Web Site

BTW, I highly recommend anything by these publishers. Their Me-262 series is far and away the best publication I have seen on thataircraft. Their Hs-129 book was excellent as well. Their Colour series are excellent. I recently received the second volume of their American Eagles Series on the P-38 in the ETO, which I highly recommend to all the P-38 fans here   :)

[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: Sundog ]

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Jumpin on the P-38 bandwagon
« Reply #87 on: December 06, 2001, 10:31:00 AM »
one of multiple posts deleted.

[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: Renegade Savage ]
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline batdog

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Jumpin on the P-38 bandwagon
« Reply #88 on: December 06, 2001, 11:11:00 AM »
38 fanactics...here is a MUST have book. http://home.att.net/~Historyzone/Widewing.html

xBAT
Of course, I only see what he posts here and what he does in the MA.  I know virtually nothing about the man.  I think its important for people to realize that we don't really know squat about each other.... definately not enough to use words like "hate".

AKDejaVu

Offline K West

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Jumpin on the P-38 bandwagon
« Reply #89 on: December 06, 2001, 11:18:00 AM »
:) I wish xbat. I bought the last copy of the P-47 book that Warren Bodie said he had. Autographed too. But the P-38 book has been out of print for years now and if you can find it you'll usually pay a steep price for it   :(

edited: I just clicked the link and saw it's a new re-released edition in softback!  Oh Santa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :) Thanks xbat for the heads up!


 Westy

[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: O'Westy ]