Author Topic: Jumpin on the P-38 bandwagon  (Read 7935 times)

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Jumpin on the P-38 bandwagon
« Reply #105 on: December 07, 2001, 12:03:00 AM »
I happen to live near the Consolidated Vultee plant in question it was in Nashville TN, and produced 113 planes. It was not a new plant, but a standing part of the Consolidated factories. The War Production Board just didn't get their act together. The P-38 was also a difficult plane to build, and required precision jigs for assembly. The USAAF needlessly tied up Lockheed engineers and fabricators on pointless projects that the USAAF mismanaged any way, when they could have been used to set up manufacturing facilities here at Consolidated Vultee, and train the employees to build the planes. Had this been done however, they could have stopped production to retool for the P-38K, and several other enhancements Lockheed had developed.

 As far as the USAAF having a desire for the P-38, and wanting more, there were a few thousand on order when the war ended. Also, the War Production Board considered the P-38 to be so important and essential that they refused to tolerate ANY delays in production, for any reason. This pretty well refutes any theories that the USAAF didn't want any more P-38's. Only when the war ended and they couldn't AFFORD the P-38 did they cancel their orders.

 Whoever said they were producing F4F Wildcats for escort carries is correct.

 Documentation of 64" of manifold pressure can be found in the Lockheed charts in the article "Der Gabelschwanz Tuefel" by Dr. Carlo Kopp, on C.C Jordan's website "Planes and Pilots of World War II".

 I have been corresponding with Dr. Kopp, Warren Bodie, and C.C. Jordan, while assisting on a project regarding the death of Major Thomas B. McGuire. The three gentlemen mentioned above were kind enough to verify those figures as correct. Mr. Jordan has a source at Lockheed Martin, and Mr. Bodie was an engineer at Lockheed for a few decades.

 As far as how to deal with the German fighter in a dive while flying the P-38, Lowell said you could roll and pull a G or two and follow any prop fighter in a dive. Heiden never mentioned his maneuver, but said he could tailgate any German plane in a dive flying a P-38J with dive flaps. Heiden also said the the P-38L could do anything as well as the P-51 could, and he flew both of them.

 The main part of your argument is, and always has been, that critical Mach is the single over riding factor in determining capability. I don't buy that.

 You also state that in YOUR opinion, critical Mach is the reason the 8th AF abandoned the P-38. I don't buy that either. Although the compression problem was a factor, it was the other problems that the 8th complained about. Cold cockpits, engine problems, difficulty with maintenance, level of difficulty for the pilots, and the continual lack of planes and spare parts.

 While not the same as military command, I have management experience, which is where the problem lay in the 8th AF. Actually, I did face a situation where a group of employees I was asked to manage failed to achieve the level of performance that other people using the same equipment achieved. The first thing I did was look at training and leadership. When motivated and qualified people were placed in positions of leadership, and the others were properly trained on the equipment, this same basic group performed as well as or better than any other. Anyone with common sense could have seen what I saw, and done what I did. Basic troubleshooting, nothing more, and certainly nothing special. I came to that position with a high school diploma and common sense, and replaced a guy with a college degree in managment.

 Now, if I had plenty of P-51's, which the 8th did not, until mid 1944, I would use them. But if I did not have plenty of P-51's, and needed the P-38's, I'd figure out what was wrong and set about fixing it. If I had successful P-38 pilots, I'd be making them group and squadron leaders, and passing every bit of knowledge they had to every P-38 pilot I had, teaching and training other pilots constantly. If I had crew chiefs who could keep P-38's in the air, and didn't lose engines, I'd have them teaching the rest every waking second they weren't working on their plane.

 The truth was, the 8th desperately needed those P-38's, and failed miserably at getting the full potential from them. Poor management and tactics in the 8th were the rule, and not the exception. The failure of Spatz and Doolittle to place successful pilots like Lowell, Ilfrey, Blumer, Heiden, and a host of others, in positions of command and authority, and allow them to get the problems solved, instead of complaining that the P-38 just couldn't get it done, speaks volumes, especially when those pilots were successful, even against the best Germany had to offer, while flying the P-38, a plane the 8th considered second rate.

The 8th had the P-38 in their inventory, and good pilots who proved they could beat anyone and anything the Germans could throw at them in the P-38. The 8th chose to ignore this fact, and replace the P-38, instead of finding out what the rest of the 8th was doing wrong when they flew the P-38.

 When a man consistently succeeds in a machine you think is second rate, if you are smart, you take a much closer look at his ride. At least if you're smart you do.

 I live in the world of must win competition. I make my living by producing winners on the race track. When something comes along that I know is going to give me a real advantage, I use it. I don't install second class parts on a race engine and expect it to win, and complain when it doesn't.

 For the USAAF to send a pilot into combat in a plane they KNEW could be improved, and they chose not to improve it, borders on criminal mis-management. Sending a soldier into battle with a weapon that could and should be better is wrong. To deny a pilot any advantage that could save his life is absurd.

 In the end, the decision to cease production of the P-38 came down to one thing: MONEY. The P-38 cost the USAAF over $130,000 per plane. The P-47 around $78,000, and the P-51 around $62,000. Only the Chance Vought F4U remained in production after the war ended for any real length of time. There were already tens of thousands of piston engined prop driven fighters in the U.S. inventory, when the USAAF only wanted well less than 10,000.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Jumpin on the P-38 bandwagon
« Reply #106 on: December 07, 2001, 12:47:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by gripen:
Hm... Well, I wonder if somebody here rates Martin Caidin's books better source than USAF documents? Also Bodie's book is a bit questionable specially in the case of the those high engine ratings.

The initial climb rates at WEP (67") for the P-51 are around (based on several tests):
P-51B without fuselage tank 3600-3900fpm
P-51B with fuselage tank 3500-3700fpm
P-51D with Fuselage tank 3400-3500fpm

And if we want fair comparison against the P-38 at 1725hp (grade 150 fuel, as rated by Allison and probably required by Lockheed too) then the P-51 had WEP +25lbs (80") and initial climb rate around 4500-4800fpm.

gripen

  Bodie was a Lockheed engineer. I'll ask him about those ratings if you like. He may or may not answer, he's quite an ornery old cuss.

  All though they could not prove that it didn't work, the USAAF did not like 64" of manifold pressure on the Allison and did not specify it. However, Lockheed and Allison did several tests and it worked.

 For some reason you think a Merlin could gain 13" inches of manifold pressure by going from 130 to 150 but an Allison could only gain 4"? Possibly true for a P-38H, but not a P-38J or L with core type intercoolers in the chins.

 Want a fair and interesting comparison between a P-51 and a P-38? Try comparing a P-51K with a P-38J-5-Lo. The P-51K had the same basic prop as a P-38, but was otherwise the same as a P-51D, Packard Merlin and all. Go look for the data.

 Want to know how good the P-38 could have been, if the USAAF and the War Production Board had let Lockheed do their job? Take a look at the P-38K.

 The P-38K had an initial climb rate of 4800 FPM at MILITARY POWER, not WEP, while FULLY loaded. It could take off from a standing start and reach 20,000 feet in 5.0 minutes. Top speed, over 430 MPH at 29,600 feet, again, at MILITARY POWER, and not WEP. While the V1710 F-30 engines used in the P-38K were rated at 1875 horsepower at WEP, their military power rating was little, if any higher than the F-17 engines in the P-38L. The props were expected to increase range by 10-15% due to enhanced efficiency. They also eliminated the failures associated with the Curtiss Electric props. Hell of an airplane, wasn't it? Would have gone into production in June of 1943, no later than the first week of August.

  You want to tell me again how I should trust the USAAF to be smart, fair, and unbiased?
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline gripen

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Jumpin on the P-38 bandwagon
« Reply #107 on: December 07, 2001, 05:23:00 AM »
Renegade Savage,
Hm... Now I must wonder a bit because there was 62,4" in that web site you claimed earlier (and CC/Widewing claimed 62,4"@3200rpm here), I quess a debate about 3200rpm here has changed history   ;) ... and I do not qualify web sites any better than Martin Caidin as a source. Anyway, noone has argued if such ratings were tested but were those ratings used in service and was there required fuel available? Also claim for critical altitude at 64" is questionable. In the case of the P-51 use of the grade 150 fuel and +25lbs MAP is well documented by the RAF and other sources.

The Merlin could handle high manifold pressures better than the V-1710 because it had lower compression ratio (6,0 vs 6,65) and actually also Allison changed to the 6,0 compression ratio in their later F and G series developements. Also it should be noted that even 60" was critical for the P-38J as seen in practice.

The America's Hundred thousand does not support at all your claims about the propeller of the P-51K. Go look for the data.

gripen

[ 12-07-2001: Message edited by: gripen ]

Offline batdog

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« Reply #108 on: December 07, 2001, 06:01:00 AM »
Hey look... we have a book now!!!!!

   xBAT
Of course, I only see what he posts here and what he does in the MA.  I know virtually nothing about the man.  I think its important for people to realize that we don't really know squat about each other.... definately not enough to use words like "hate".

AKDejaVu

Offline Guppy

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« Reply #109 on: December 07, 2001, 07:04:00 AM »
A question: would it be possible to accidentally overboost your engine in a dive?

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #110 on: December 07, 2001, 07:57:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by gripen:
Renegade Savage,
Hm... Now I must wonder a bit because there was 62,4" in that web site you claimed earlier (and CC/Widewing claimed 62,4"@3200rpm here), I quess a debate about 3200rpm here has changed history    ;) ... and I do not qualify web sites any better than Martin Caidin as a source. Anyway, noone has argued if such ratings were tested but were those ratings used in service and was there required fuel available? Also claim for critical altitude at 64" is questionable. In the case of the P-51 use of the grade 150 fuel and +25lbs MAP is well documented by the RAF and other sources.

The Merlin could handle high manifold pressures better than the V-1710 because it had lower compression ratio (6,0 vs 6,65) and actually also Allison changed to the 6,0 compression ratio in their later F and G series developements. Also it should be noted that even 60" was critical for the P-38J as seen in practice.

The America's Hundred thousand does not support at all your claims about the propeller of the P-51K. Go look for the data.

gripen

[ 12-07-2001: Message edited by: gripen ]

  The data and charts came from the Lockheed Martin archives. As I stated above, this was provided by a source currently employed by Lockheed Martin, to C.C. Jordan, and Warren Bodie was until the early to mid eighties, an engineer at Lockheed. Whether it is published in your favorite book or not is irrelevant. Martin Caiden and your opinion of him has nothing to do with this. Books are not by definition any more correct or reliable than a website. Accuracy depends on the thoroughness and honesty of the person who does the research, not what media it is published in.

  Why is it you use a comma where a decimal is appropriate? As far as compression ratio is concerned, 0.65:1 difference (6.0:1 as compared to 6.65:1) does not allow for a 20" (10 pounds of boost) difference in manifold pressure. Anyone who believes that it does has no idea what they are talking about. That difference in compression ratio will barely account for 2" difference in manifold pressure, at best.

 The argument concerning the ratings has more to do with whether or not the USAAF was fair and honest, and whether or not they knew what they were doing, than what was actually used. It was the contention of Lockheed and General Motors Allison division that the USAAF was unfair and biased in their ratings, and has been for decades.

 On the subject of testing and rating engines, one thing you should know is that the tests and results are only consistent and reliable if the proper conditions are met and maintained. An engine dyno is a very funny piece of equipment. Readings may be so easily manipulated by the person operating the dyno as to render results worthless. Other than the advent of computer controls, the engine dyno has not changed in over 80 years, it is merely a water brake with a device to measure pressure or force exerted in a rotational direction. I own and operate a Kahn 1000 horsepower, 10,000 RPM water brake dyno, it works exactly the same as the Heenan Froude dyno used to test aircraft engines. I can demonstrate for you the fact that torque readings (horsepower equals torque in pounds feet multiplied by RPM and divided by 5252), and the threshold of detonation can be easily manipulated by a minute adjustment of the damper valve on the dyno. An adjustment so small you would not even know I turned the valve at all, even if you were standing 1 foot away and staring at my hand. Considering their proclivity for ignorance and bias, I trust the USAAF and their dyno results less than you trust Martin Caiden, and for good reason.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Guppy

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« Reply #111 on: December 07, 2001, 08:09:00 AM »
Commas are used instead of periods to indicate the decimal point in European countries.

This is apparently why the international standard for digit groupings is a space, not a comma (e.g. 1 000 instead of 1,000).

Offline Steven

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« Reply #112 on: December 07, 2001, 10:37:00 AM »
Renegade,

"Top Guns"... I think I had this book many years ago.  I do remember having a book with the story you quote but lent it to a friend almost 10yrs ago and never saw it again.  Does the book end discussing Randy Cunningham's victories?  Anyway, if the same book, I also remember a story about a P38 pilot challenging a Spit pilot to a friendly duel over England who wins out over the Spit.  That's probably the better story to tell.  <g>  I'll have to look into this title and see if I can't replace it.

Offline bolillo_loco

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« Reply #113 on: December 07, 2001, 02:44:00 PM »
Hi grippen!

can you tell me which book and or test you are quoting with the 3,500 and up to 4,800 fpm climbs for the P-51B/D? if it is a test that somebody posted on a web site could you give me the url please? I do have a lot of mustang books, but most are old. Roger Freemans book on the pony may be of interest to you. not only does it state the mustangs good points, but it also goes into details on its vices and maintenance problems. I think all planes had their problems none more than any other. Roger Freemans book gives the cronological order of problems and restrictions placed on the mustang during the war. It is a good read and not too expensive.  
 http://www.classic-books.co.uk/books/ae.html

Offline gripen

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« Reply #114 on: December 07, 2001, 02:45:00 PM »
Renegade Savage,
Well, the problem is that they have claimed 1725hp rating as standard but so far there has been no evidence. Another problem is that CC/Widewing has claimed several different versions of this rating (60"@3000rpm, 62.4"@3200rpm, 64" something 3000rpm I quess) so which one to believe and why claims tend to change?

The V-1710-G6R/L (6.0:1 compression ratio) was rated dry for 74"@3200rpm with grade 115/145 fuel, very comparable to the Merlin at 80"@3000rpm with grade 100/150. So at least 10" can be explained  by the ratio change and maybe more because you have not claimed RPM nor fuel for that 64" rating, so, please do. Allison claimed 1725hp at 3200rpm with grade 150 fuel, Aircraft Engines of the World 1947 claims 60" for this rating. So what's the exact rating and fuel?

BTW You don't have explain your opinions about American soldiers at the Wright field during WWII in your every post. I believe everybody allready know how much you respect these veterans.

gripen

Offline gripen

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« Reply #115 on: December 07, 2001, 03:07:00 PM »
bolillo_loco,
Books,
Tim Mason: The Secret Years
David Birch: Rolls Royce and the Mustang
Ken Delve: The Mustang Story
Jeffrey Ethell: Mustang - a Documentary History

Archives:
A&AEE reports are easy find from the PRO
There is a good library in Boscombe Down too.
Lot of USAF records are available from the NARA and AFHRA

Then there is some stuff which are a bit conf...

gripen

Offline bolillo_loco

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« Reply #116 on: December 07, 2001, 03:16:00 PM »
Thanks grippen the books are added to my get list. would you have any specific ulrs for the naca data? I am sure you have been there already and there is a ton of junk to sift thru, takes days and days  :(

Offline gripen

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« Reply #117 on: December 07, 2001, 03:30:00 PM »
bolillo_loco,
Well, I don't really know what you wan't, for me there is lot of fun stuff (in fact too much). Anyway, this is a good report about dive recovery flaps.
There is a lot of NACA stuff around which is not even listed in their computer index, so just keep your eyes open.

gripen

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #118 on: December 07, 2001, 03:30:00 PM »
Hi Hilts,

>But one thing I take exception to is people who persist in questioning the honor and honesty of decorated combat veteran pilots.

Look at it soberly: There's information readily recognizable as wrong in that report, for example the description of the function of MW50 injection. Noone would call Lowell a liar for that - I'm quite confident that his explanation matched both his observations and whatever intelligence he had on the Focke-Wulf.

I'd put a bit more trust in the veterans than you apparently do - it's not like the entire story would collapse if you'd try to resolve the major contradictions. Just a different estimate of the date (which might have been confused), allowing for misidentification of the "long-nose" Fw 190 (which happened very often in early 1944), would also make it a possiblity that Galland had some more freedom and a legitimate interest in the Reichsverteidigung, making it much more likely that he actually personally flew a mission. If the wrong date was used to verify the target, the process of checking the story might have unintentionally introduced an error, and if the target was, say, the Ruhr area, open-cast mining wouldn't be unusual at all.

That's just speculation to show how a minor mix-up could have created the contradictions we're observing, and common sense should tell you that there's nothing dishonorable about it.

I don't know if you read about Urban Drew and the destruction of the unique Bv 238 giant flying boat which was attributed to him. His claim had been a Bv 222, historians said it was the Bv 238, but after Drew years later recognized the history of the Bv 238 destruction conflicted with his memories of the incident, and helped with further research, it was found that he had actually destroyed an equally unique giant flying boat that the Luftwaffe had captured from the French, and intended to use for the insertion of special forces.

That's an excellent example for a well-researched story that was considered correct for years with good justification - and yet, the truth was entirely different, and finally revealed by taking both the veteran's memories and the contradictions in the accepted story seriously.

I don't expect the contradictions in Lowell's story to be due to similarly spectacular coincidences, but I have great faith that both documented facts and the veterans' memories will fit perfectly once you find out how to match the puzzle pieces.

I really admire how Urban Drew, discovering the contradictions between accepted history and his memory of the events, decided to push for clarification! It would have been easy for him to accept the myth instead.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

>12-06-2001 07:08 PM

Offline Guppy

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« Reply #119 on: December 07, 2001, 06:53:00 PM »
...allowing for misidentification of the "long-nose" Fw 190 (which happened very often in early 1944)...

Definitely the case. 4th FS (52nd FG) Spitfire pilots in February 1944 reported two encounters with four-ships of inline Fw 190s over Nice harbour in the Mediterranean.

One possibility which would allow for Galland actually flying a long-nosed 190 might be the pre-production service test models, which were around in early 1944. Given his rank, I'd imagine he could have gotten one without too much trouble if he intended to personally fly.

When the actual fight started, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for the P-38 pilots' identification process to go as follows:

1) Correctly identify the formation as Fw 190s.
2) Focus on the lead plane and correctly identify it as a "long-nosed" 190.
3) Call out "Bandits! Flight of long-nosed 190s!", not bothering to look closely at the other 190s in the formation.
4) Fight starts, and everyone's too busy to worry about subtle differences anymore.

(Wonder if I'll regret entering this discussion...  ;))