Author Topic: Chrysler-Fiat? Jeep-Fiat? ???  (Read 1035 times)

Offline Masherbrum

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22416
Re: Chrysler-Fiat? Jeep-Fiat? ???
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2009, 09:48:45 AM »
With the Union running things I don't see much hope for the company. It was the Unions that put the car companies into the condition they are in now.

The CEO's did.   
FSO Squad 412th FNVG
http://worldfamousfridaynighters.com/
Co-Founder of DFC

Offline j500ss

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 495
Re: Chrysler-Fiat? Jeep-Fiat? ???
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2009, 09:51:01 AM »
UAW is already looking to dump all its stocks, they want to turn them over into cash for health care and benefits funds. They won't be a major share holder for long IMHO

Offline Tango

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1421
      • http://www.simpilots.org/
Re: Chrysler-Fiat? Jeep-Fiat? ???
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2009, 11:01:46 AM »
The CEO's did.   

Yes thats true. They kept giving into the demands of the Unions and we now see what happens when you do.
Tango78
78th Razorbacks
Historical Air Combat Group

Offline Masherbrum

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22416
Re: Chrysler-Fiat? Jeep-Fiat? ???
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2009, 11:27:58 AM »
Yes thats true. They kept giving into the demands of the Unions and we now see what happens when you do.

I grew up in a Union family.   My father made a measly $20/hour when he retired from Ford after 33 years of never missing a day of work.    My mother taught for Detroit Public Schools for 28 years.   UAW workers doing what my pop did make less than $14 and NO Benefits at all.

The only time Unions come up is when the Skilled Trades and their $60/hour jobs are deliberately put in the same league as the "Line Workers".   

I only see the results of noodlesty Engineering and noodlesty mismanagement while raping Corporate Funds.   To put the sole blame of the demise of Chrysler and GM on the hands of the UAW is chickennoodles at best.    There are many threads where I have pointed out these things and they don't even come close to "blame of the UAW."   

My father would throw valve body parts at his foreman's sons head when he fell asleep and stopped production.   My father will still tell someone he wishes "he could be reimbursed for Union Dues because he never needed the Union to help him, because he showed up for work every day and did his job."   

When people trash the UAW for the screw ups, my father laughs because at the end of the day he hates them just as much as we do.   But then there are those who are ignorant and just hate, to hate.   

I could bring up the Junk Bond status of GM, Ford and Chrysler and it has NOTHING to do with the UAW.   But it does involve gross negligence on the "Smart White Collar" greed mongers, that wish to blame the UAW, while they skim the coffers to this day. 
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 11:29:44 AM by Masherbrum »
FSO Squad 412th FNVG
http://worldfamousfridaynighters.com/
Co-Founder of DFC

Offline Skuzzy

  • Support Member
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 31462
      • HiTech Creations Home Page
Re: Chrysler-Fiat? Jeep-Fiat? ???
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2009, 11:42:55 AM »
When Mercedes Benz held Chrysler, they dumped it off for one reason.  They could not see how the company would remain viable given the UAW retirement benefits.

That is not to say upper management was not to blame. 

I would say both upper management and the UAW painted themselves into a corner where failure of the business was inevitable.

GM is doing it right.  Upper management takes the money and runs, then hands the mess over to the tax payers to run.  That is how you properly bilk a company of its money and get away with it.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 11:45:20 AM by Skuzzy »
Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
support@hitechcreations.com

Offline Masherbrum

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22416
Re: Chrysler-Fiat? Jeep-Fiat? ???
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2009, 12:06:18 PM »
When Mercedes Benz held Chrysler, they dumped it off for one reason.  They could not see how the company would remain viable given the UAW retirement benefits.

That is not to say upper management was not to blame. 

I would say both upper management and the UAW painted themselves into a corner where failure of the business was inevitable.


GM is doing it right.  Upper management takes the money and runs, then hands the mess over to the tax payers to run.  That is how you properly bilk a company of its money and get away with it.

THIS I can believe, I just refuse to allow the UAW to take all of it.   It's irrational otherwise.   Both sides are equal in blame, or none at all.   

But Chrysler has always been the "weaker of the 3".   I'm actually surprised they lasted this long.   Ford has been recovering since 2005.   They are way ahead of the curve right now and may not even need the Bailout money. 

GM is screwed though.   But they've had too many brands, for too long.   
FSO Squad 412th FNVG
http://worldfamousfridaynighters.com/
Co-Founder of DFC

Offline redwing7

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 288
Re: Chrysler-Fiat? Jeep-Fiat? ???
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2009, 01:14:02 PM »
Being third generation automotive suppier i have seen it all, I agree it is both the union and management that is at fault. Retirement and healthcare costs play a big part in it corporate greed of course plays another. Wait for another 20 years or so and see what kind of problems Toyota, Nissan, and the other "foreign" car manufacturers in the US have once they have a similar number of retirees drawing pensions and healthcare. If you think about it, it's like a classic pyramid scam and we all know how those work out.

As far as the Chrysler Fiat merger, the best analogy I have heard is that it's like two men in the ocean without life jackets, getting together may help for a while but the end is inevitable.

And a thought for anyone who believes that the recession is anywhere close to coming to an end, you ain't seen nothing yet. Just because we stuck a gross amount of money into businesses that provide "services" and the stock market has been climbing back up. Who will be able to pay for these "services" when there are no manufacturing jobs left in the US? Bottom line is, Manufacturing jobs have to be created or brought back or there are very dark days ahead.

P.S.
I totally agree with Skuzzy on GM with to many brands, the sad reality is that when the dust settles hundreds of small suppliers will be put out of business and thousands of workers will loose their jobs.
THUNDER MOB

"and when they bury me, may it be face down...so all my critics can kiss my ass!"  Bobby Knight

Offline Lye-El

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1466
Re: Chrysler-Fiat? Jeep-Fiat? ???
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2009, 02:49:07 PM »
Fiat is not all about little bitty cars, they own Ferrari too...



And which one is government going to require Chrysler to build? The little dinky cars that nobody wants.


i dont got enough perkies as it is and i like upen my lancs to kill 1 dang t 34 or wirble its fun droping 42 bombs

Offline CDR1

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 61
Re: Chrysler-Fiat? Jeep-Fiat? ???
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2009, 03:08:28 PM »
no sir, it was the management agreeing to the union demands and passing on the costs to everyone who bought a vehicle from them. i make a good living repairing broken Jeeps, if my income depended on repairing Landcrusiers i be eating grass and looking forward to hotdog weekends once a month.

Offline Masherbrum

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22416
Re: Chrysler-Fiat? Jeep-Fiat? ???
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2009, 03:40:18 PM »
no sir, it was the management agreeing to the union demands and passing on the costs to everyone who bought a vehicle from them. i make a good living repairing broken Jeeps, if my income depended on repairing Landcrusiers i be eating grass and looking forward to hotdog weekends once a month.

Jeep Liberty's maybe, but most of the wrinkles were long ironed out from TJ's, XJ, and Z/WJ's (with the ZJ's being known in 93 & 94 for having electrical issues, much like the Land Rover Disco's with the Lucas wiring).   I know the new JK's use the Caravan engine, which unfortunately sucks in the low end torque range of wheeling (from the 258) and probaby bring a slew of problems of it's own.  I know noone with a Commander, but those seem to be somewhat reliable.
FSO Squad 412th FNVG
http://worldfamousfridaynighters.com/
Co-Founder of DFC

Offline APDrone

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3385
Re: Chrysler-Fiat? Jeep-Fiat? ???
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2009, 04:10:08 PM »
Except for a woefully misguided 6 month stint in a Saturn, I had been a loyal Chrysler/Jeep owner since 1988.

Until November of last year.

The last 2 Grand Cherokees ( '97 and '01 ) had become $1k oil change machines once they hit 110k miles.  When I went to replace my '01, I found they had redesigned the Grand and removed 1.5" of headroom from the driver... which made it too small for me to sit in.  I'm still scratching my head over that one. After 14 years, they forced me to move on.

I looked at all the vehicles they had to offer.. and I couldn't find one that called to me.  The commander is a pathetic joke.. reduced rear visibility when the third seat is up?  C'mon..   Looks like a bloated Cherokee.  Bah.

The Nitro has got to be one of the most butt-ugly conconctions they've ever come up with.. and, whereas I wouldn't mind the Calibre, the interior is simply bland.  And it seams that just about all of them share the same boxy looking, cheap, door panels.  The cars just wreaked of 'we don't care!'. Granted.. the Challenger and Magnum are cool.. but not enough to get me to buy them.

I loved my '91 Sundance. That was a fun little car.. decent mileage, good styling and performance.. and with the liftback had plenty of accessible cargo space. Our '93 Acclaim had more interior room for a sedan than just about anything on the road.

I really tried to give Jeep/Chrysler the benefit of the doubt and find something I could live with.

I couldn't.

So, now I own a Honda Pilot.  At least it was assembled in America.

 

AKDrone

Scenario "Battle of Britain" 602nd Squadron


Offline Skuzzy

  • Support Member
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 31462
      • HiTech Creations Home Page
Re: Chrysler-Fiat? Jeep-Fiat? ???
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2009, 04:30:00 PM »


Why is it the above car is not available in the U.S.?  A 300HP rocket, and one that looks pretty good, yet Ford will not bring it to the U.S.  It is available only in Europe.  Lucky bastiages.

Ford is so close to getting a clue it hurts.  They seem to have Europe figured out. 

Leaps and bounds ahead of both GM and Chrysler.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 04:31:39 PM by Skuzzy »
Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
support@hitechcreations.com

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8804
Re: Chrysler-Fiat? Jeep-Fiat? ???
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2009, 05:46:14 PM »
Correct.  55% of Chrysler is controlled by the UAW.   

UAW shares are non-voting shares..... FIAT will have a controlling majority with about 30%.


My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8804
Re: Chrysler-Fiat? Jeep-Fiat? ???
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2009, 06:31:31 PM »
Jeep Liberty's maybe, but most of the wrinkles were long ironed out from TJ's, XJ, and Z/WJ's (with the ZJ's being known in 93 & 94 for having electrical issues, much like the Land Rover Disco's with the Lucas wiring).   I know the new JK's use the Caravan engine, which unfortunately sucks in the low end torque range of wheeling (from the 258) and probaby bring a slew of problems of it's own.  I know noone with a Commander, but those seem to be somewhat reliable.

That 3.8 V6 makes considerably more torque than the 4.0 inline six did, it just makes it 1,000 rpm higher. I actually prefer the 3.8 over the 4.0 in my '92 YJ Wrangler. My YJ was lifted 1.5" and it still didn't have the ground clearance of my JK, nor the ability to crawl over ridiculous stuff like the JK can.


My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Masherbrum

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22416
Re: Chrysler-Fiat? Jeep-Fiat? ???
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2009, 09:40:30 PM »
That 3.8 V6 makes considerably more torque than the 4.0 inline six did, it just makes it 1,000 rpm higher. I actually prefer the 3.8 over the 4.0 in my '92 YJ Wrangler. My YJ was lifted 1.5" and it still didn't have the ground clearance of my JK, nor the ability to crawl over ridiculous stuff like the JK can.


My regards,

Widewing

In mud, that 1,000 rpm makes ALL of the difference.   
FSO Squad 412th FNVG
http://worldfamousfridaynighters.com/
Co-Founder of DFC