velocity test of guns/cannon rounds

[Maverick]

Hooligan,

Ignorance is all fishu HAS to share, besides his attitude.

Mav

[funked]

.50 cal and Hispano starting out the fastest and slowing down the least?  That should not be surprising to anybody who took high school physics or is familiar with firearms.  If you have two items with about the same drag, but one is heavier, which one slows down quicker?

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-30-2000).]

[lazs]

funked, that was at best a transparent attempt to hide the secret of the little rockets.
lazs

[Toad]

Laz!

Cool it! Loose lips sink ships!

Next thing you know you'll be telling them about the second-stage solid fuel boosters on the WW2 .50 and the 20mm.

Oops!

 

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Toad

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

-William Pitt

[Pongo]

We does hooligan keep comparing the ballistics of the mine round for the 151 with the ? round for the hispano. We know that the hispano is an AP round. But I thought we were certain that the mine round was not modeled in AH. So why keep comparing it?
What are the ballistics of the 151 AP round.
What are the ballistics of the Hispano AP round...
No name calling now.

[Maverick]

 

Originally posted by Toad:
Laz!

Cool it! Loose lips sink ships!

Next thing you know you'll be telling them about the second-stage solid fuel boosters on the WW2 .50 and the 20mm.

Oops!

 

Darnit toad. You keep this up and we won't be having a battle of wits anymore!!!! I won't play with someone who arms the Finns. (or at least one of them)

You know darn well this could lead to a new and disastrous arms race!!

Mav

[Hooligan]

Pongo:

I think that you are wrong.  151 Mine rounds have a MV around 800 m/s.  All other 151 rounds have a MV around 705m/s.

Niklas charts show a MV for the 151 nearly identical to that of ShVak (which is 800 m/s) and much closer to the HS than it would be if it was an AP round.

Hooligan

[Fishu]

I wonder whos ignorant in here..
maverick, look at the mirror ok?

I think i'll give up.. theres alot other sims coming up, where hopefully is people that can discuss instead of callin others "whiner whiner whiner" on every second post.

So.. Aces High will be 'yankee rules' type of sim.. err game.. (didnt ht say its game not sim? explains alot..)
Well, thats good if wants to come along with the budget and for them who don't really care about hispanos with 30mm HE effect..
..but for them who looks for the sim, it is pretty depressing.

I wonder if 'Maverick' and other guys have ever flown 109 in AH for hundred kills.
Tell what you tell, but you can't say there isn't frustrating difference with the cannons.

If I am luftwaffe whiner (though, I wonder that.. I consider myself more of neutral, as I try to seek for a sim, not for arcade), then you "allied whiners" better think from another perspective than from your F4u 1C seats perspective.

[This message has been edited by Fishu (edited 10-31-2000).]

[-ammo-]

 

Originally posted by Fishu:


If I am luftwaffe whiner (though, I wonder that.. I consider myself more of neutral, as I try to seek for a sim, not for arcade), then you "allied whiners" better think from another perspective than from your F4u 1C seats perspective.

[This message has been edited by Fishu (edited 10-31-2000).]

you try to seek for a sim...? You mean you actually try to seek to justify your point of view on your  own "thoughts and suppositions" and not any research or data. And it isnt working. Sorry fishu, don't pull out the "allied oppertunist" truimp, it wont work. There are at least 2 people who know a little about ballistics that have attempted to show you, but you disreguarg. The 30mm was very destructive in close, as was the 20mm LW stuff. But it just will not do what you want it to do.

So if you really have gotten you feelings hurt and intend to leave, well heres a quarter......

{translation, nonone wants to hear your whining}

ammo

[Hooligan]

Fishu:

Do you or do you not have some actual data?

Hooligan

[SageFIN]

The discrepancy we have here is IMO due to the synthesis modelling of the rounds. We have Hispano rounds that fly with the trajectory of an AP Hispano round. We have Mauser rounds that fly with the trajectory of an HE Mauser round (allegedly). (I don't know squat about the Russian, Italian and Japanese cannons... does anyone have any numbers to throw in? What type of round would their trajectories suggest?)

This would be very well if the other characteristics of the weapons would have been modelled using the same ammo type as with the ballistics calculations. The problem is, they aren't. According to Pyro they sort of combined the HE and AP effects into a single round so that the guns don't really fire different sorts of ammo.

So now we have Hispano with HE capabilities (or all the other cannon's are lacking theirs) and with the trajectory of an AP round. Mauser apparently does not have any AP capabilities (it's damage in A2A is IMO fine) and has the trajectory of a HE round. I don't really know enough of the other cannons to say anything about them.

So perhaps the Hispano's ballistics should be calculated using the HE projectile or then maybe other cannon's ballistics should use the AP round to determine trajectory, BC and such.

Hooligan, you might have info about the BCs and weights of the Hispano HE rounds and of the AP rounds of Mg151 both AP and HE, ShVak, Type-99 etc. ? (The BCs for the Hispano AP and Mg151 minengeschosse have already been posted) Care to post them?

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SageFIN

"The wolves are gathering, the stars are shifting...
come, join us in the hunt!"
---

[Hooligan]

I don't have trajectory data for Hispano rounds.

There shouldn't be much difference between the trajectories of most HE and AP rounds for the same guns.  The reason that there is a big difference for the Mine round and the AP round is that the Mine round is much lighter (around 90g instead of 115g).  All the conventional 151 rounds (including HE) that I have information on weigh about 115g and have similar G1-BCs in the range of .44 to .50.

Here are some BCs I have calculated.

45.9g .50 Ball .72
42.9g .50 AP/I .65

(all of the following 151 rounds weigh 115g except for the mine)
151 HE-tracer .48
151 HE-practice .44
151 HE/I .48
151 Incendiary .47
87g Mine .27
90g Mine .27

Concerning the Mauser's AP performance:  The 151 AP round has a muzzle velocity of 705 m/s (compared to around 880 m/s for the Hispano or 928 m/s for the .50 AP/I).  At short range a Hispano can punch through about 45mm of armor plate, while a .50 and 151 should both be able to punch through about 25mm.  .50s don't do much to PzIV's either.

Hispano's do hit somewhat harder than the other cannons, but they should.  They fire larger rounds at a much higher velocity.  A Hispano AP round will go through most of the aircraft structure in addition to the pilot armor on any WWII fighter at any range at which you can hit.

Hooligan

[This message has been edited by Hooligan (edited 10-31-2000).]

[Maverick]

 

Originally posted by Fishu:
I wonder whos ignorant in here..
maverick, look at the mirror ok

I think i'll give up.. theres alot other sims coming up, where hopefully is people that can discuss instead of callin others "whiner whiner whiner" on every second post.

So.. Aces High will be 'yankee rules' type of sim.. err game.. (didnt ht say its game not sim? explains alot..)
Well, thats good if wants to come along with the budget and for them who don't really care about hispanos with 30mm HE effect..
..but for them who looks for the sim, it is pretty depressing.

I wonder if 'Maverick' and other guys have ever flown 109 in AH for hundred kills.
Tell what you tell, but you can't say there isn't frustrating difference with the cannons.

If I am luftwaffe whiner (though, I wonder that.. I consider myself more of neutral, as I try to seek for a sim, not for arcade), then you "allied whiners" better think from another perspective than from your F4u 1C seats perspective.

[This message has been edited by Fishu (edited 10-31-2000).]

Fishu, As I have stated in the past. You read about things that I have personal experience at. Then you proceed to try and expound as an expert at what you have read about. I spent 24 years in Armor. I have fired many thousands of small caliber MG's (7.62), 50 Cal MG's both in infantry and tank mounts. Yes fishu, 50 cals will sail right through both sides of an armored personnel carrier (M113) constructed of aluminum that is considerably thicker, harder and heavier than WW2 aircraft. I have also fired quite a few cannon rounds at both hard and soft targets. This doesn't even count any small arms experience I had. Now how many MG's have you fired? How many cannon rounds have you fired? How much time have you spent on a real live fire range setting and replacing targets? How many "hard targets" have you examined before and after the range was opened? Have you ever attended a classified ordinance and weapon briefing? What is your security classification in ANY armed force?

I taught Armor tactics in the Army Armor Officers Advance Course. I taught the operational(tactical and strategic) and administrative portion of the Army Command and General Staff Course. You have the audacity to say that I am ignorant???? You don't even have the experiances of a first week boot camp enlistee.

This IS a game fishu, it is not real. I don't care how many "missions or sorties" you have flown in a game. How many hours have you flown as a pilot in any airplane??? I have my own plane that I fly, for real, not just some computer game. I also know and speak to veterans of WW2 who flew the REAL planes in combat.

I would like to know just how or on what basis you say the 20mm (HISPANO) is the equivalent to a 30mm HE round. Where is your data? Do you have any charts? Do you have any information on ballistics, explosive characteristics of either round?

Finally, yes there are a lot of other sims coming. In one or another someone there will know even less than you do and will have no idea that you really don't know what you are talking about. I am sure you will enjoy being an "expert" to them. As far as I can see, the only thing you are expert in is what is commonly used to fertilize gardens and is the byproduct of the cattle industry.

Mav

[This message has been edited by Maverick (edited 10-31-2000).]

[Vermillion]

Nice post Mav  

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Fishu]

Never have said myself as an expert, maverick, you're going too far mr. rambo.

 

I would like to know just how or on what basis you say the 20mm (HISPANO) is the equivalent to a 30mm HE round. Where is your data? Do you have any charts? Do you have any information on ballistics, explosive characteristics of either round?

Are you serious?  buah.. that was AH description for the Hispano...
It is 20mm AP (well, so they say) but still it blows up pieces off like 30mm.
I know kinda well that Hispano is 20mm.. I know well too that it was AP, but AH knows it as HE or something between.

Ok.. i'll ignore you Maverick, you don't seem read enough that you would had understood that I have talked of AH hispano in that one.

Do you happen to be that same Maverick of 'Omnipotent'?
At least you two sound alike.