Major complaint....

[Krusty]

My squad was in 190A5s tasked to guard a specific strat.... We had a number of other units nearby but they were spread out. We had reports of bombers, chased to no result, returned to our strat.... only to find 30+ P38s over 30k, B17s at 25k, SO MANY CONS could NOT see the B17s even though they were in the middle of a GIANT swarm of friendlies and enemies.

It was Rangoon all over again. I didn't see the B17s until I just about rammed through one of them. My wingmen are asking "where? Where?" I'm saying "My location! Right by me!" nobody saw jack.


Too many damned cons in too small a frakking area.

The game CANNOT SUPPORT THIS CRAP, please make sure the rules take this into account with how badly the allies swarm any single area. Please!


That is my major complaint. Nothing new, but STILL something folks keep forgetting. Now back to your regular programming.

[Saxman]

I'd have liked to not have to drag ourselves up to 30,000ft to try and get at LEAST an equal starting altitude. I don't really find that much fun. The numbers alse don't help when the Allies have access to formations, which really compounds that problem. VMF-251 didn't have too much trouble, but we mostly tangled with about 8-10 P-38s we pulled out from the main group to the NE of the city in 13.6. Did the Allies send one large bomber force to hit 2-3 different targets tonight?

Too bad we couldn't have actually used the truck convoys and trains as targets, make for a tactical air war as opposed to the strategic one which would have been a lot more interesting.

[Krusty]

190s can barely stay level at 30K. 32k they're just about stalled out. Our engines dropped so low we were almost on idle settings with full power (was dipping below 0.8 ata).

Meanwhile, allied P38s can cruise 35K+ with no problem. You'd think they can get along with less in 1 mob? (*shrug*)

[MjTalon]

JG11 were engaged by no less than 25 P47s co alt at 28-30k. We spotted the bombers directly below us coming right towards A71 and fortune was on our side. We had a speed + HO advantage on the entire bomber stream and alot of bombers met a swift death from our mixture of 20 and 30mm cannon rounds to the cockpit.

We were heavily outnumbered but we took down ALOT of their P47s and B26s. Most fun I've had with those number differential in a long time.You don't hear any complaints from me, it's just a target rich environment.

Krusty, i understand where you're coming from. We were leveled at 30k and doing quite well in our A8s. Why didn't you guys just dive away from the 38s or put it in a shallow dive? P38s compress so easily to the average pilot above 20k that it should be irrelevant that it would be a complaint about them. I think you guys should have just scouted the bomber forces and made them priority. Dogfighting against those numbers was suicide. We focused on each bomber formation we were able to get guns on and most went down from that.

There were at least 50+ airframes in our area around A71 yet we still downed a hefty amount and still came up with airframes intact. I believe you guys just used improper tactics against a numerical disadvantage.   

I'm not trying to start a arguement nor kicking sand in anyone's face so please don't take this the wrong way. 

[oakranger]

How far will u have to be to see cons icon?  I had icon at 6.0 k and i thought they didn't show till 3.0k. 

[SmokinLoon]

I understand Krusty's point.  It does get frustrating especially when these scenarios are supposed to mimic the actual battle specifics and instead we get a mockery of the real deal.

In the future, this very scenario and other like it may I suggest MORE bombers, fewer fighters, and some alt specifics?  Escort fighters did NOT go to 30k while the bombers they were protecting were at 18k.  Also, I believe a minimum and maximum altitude over target for bombers is in order, as well as a maximum alt diferential for escorting fighters.

Also... perhaps have a delayed launch (5, 10, 15 minutes?) for the defenders to give the attackers a legit advantage jsut like the real deal.  Perhaps that alone would stop the 30k escort fighters.

My biggest complaint is the "meet in the middle" mentality these scenarios are proving to be.

[oakranger]

 Also, I believe a minimum and maximum altitude over target for bombers is in order, as well as a maximum alt diferential for escorting fighters.

Also... perhaps have a delayed launch (5, 10, 15 minutes?) for the defenders to give the attackers a legit advantage jsut like the real deal.  Perhaps that alone would stop the 30k escort fighters.

I am with you on the target Alt for bomber over target.  In most cases during the war, bomber range from 15k to 25 k. 

[BnZs]

Frankly, the Axis would have done better if more squads flying Axis hadn't been at half their normal rosters or less.

We easily convinced some P-51s to take the fight to low altitude, where the G2s could have eaten them alive. The only fly in the ointment, when I say "some" I mean at least 50 vs. about 9 of us. Hopefully dragging all those escorts low at least made things easier for some interceptors later on.

  Two squads of 109s supposed to be in that area and the grand total between the both of us comes out 9, count 'em 9 players. Complaints about having to fight at high altitude are beside the point when one side has that kind of non-attendance.

 

[Spikes]

I think a maximum alt for fighters should be in place, judging on the opponent's fighter. Like Sax said, we leveled at 25K and the 38s were 32K+ when we engaged. We slipped right behind them and they didn't see us till we were 1.5K out, but they had speed, and lots of it. Something that our G2's didn't have because we had to climb an extra 5K..

[BnZs]

Not in favor of limiting fighter operating altitudes. Perhaps limiting bomber heights though...you limit bomber heights to say 22K, that opens the possibility that interceptors will slip right in under 30K+ escorts and do a lot of damage to the formations and dive away scot-free. The only hitch with this proposition is that a formation of B-24s or B-17s is a lot more dangerous to get close to than a P-51 what with 18 guns firing at you, you would still need to be practically at 30K to attack with positioning and speed to make it a non-suicide run.

So, limit buffs to 22K, no formations, give Axis a reasonable chance to accomplish the primary objective (down 4 engine jobs) at an altitude where they still have some performance left.

I think a maximum alt for fighters should be in place, judging on the opponent's fighter. Like Sax said, we leveled at 25K and the 38s were 32K+ when we engaged. We slipped right behind them and they didn't see us till we were 1.5K out, but they had speed, and lots of it. Something that our G2's didn't have because we had to climb an extra 5K..

[hornet79]

Now lets see if I got this. You fly fighters that go roughly twice as fast as my bomber, I have to fly in a straight line and have to sit in the front of the plane and look down through a bomb site while you shoot at me. Oh, did I mention that I have to fly straight and level to get my bombs out while you can attack from any angle. So to make it better for you we need to take one of the few advantages that the bombers have, namly tight formations at high altitude away? NOT!! Pardon me if I dont weep  when your fighter engines strain while my four Wright Cyclone engines roar at high altitude!

[Hajo]

Gents.

Fighters frequently did cruise at 30K to escort.  The Jugs we were in weren't quite that high.

The A model 190 is going to have a problem above 23K.  Although I believe it's ceiling is listed in the 38K range.

What happened was close to real in the tail end of 1943 thru 1945.

LW was receiving more fighters but did not have enough Pilots and most new ones had little training (fuel shortages)

In that case we are very close to historical fact.  Face it LW, you have a tough nut to crack.

The icon problem is a challenge for sure.  But....it is equal to all.

BTW during the Scenario DGS there were more aircraft in the air.  And if I remember the LW won.

[Ghosth]

The problem is, the Admin CM sets up targets, encounter zones, etc.

Passes it down to the Side CO. Who has the freedom to decide who goes where, and when.

I know that 3 major attacks all were planned to use the same corridor within 5 minutes of each other.
I knew it was going to be a problem, esp for the Axis side, before we ever took off.

The problem is there is little we can do about it, other than remind side CO's not to group attacks.

We need instead of a 32 plane limit, or a 64 plane limit at least a 128 plane limit.

When we will get that, well thats a good question. I for one have been waiting 10 years.

Krusty I understand your frustration, I just don't see a good answer to the problem.

[Nefarious]

The only thing I might recommend is making more targets. Have 8, Maybe even 10 Targets.

I had 6 Groups of 30-36 Bombers and anywhere between 17 and 47 Escort Fighters.

If you had 8 or even 10 targets, you spread the forces more evenly. Be careful on how far you spread them though, it makes the Allies job much more tougher splitting the squads into Buff Groups.

[Nefarious]

I know that 3 major attacks all were planned to use the same corridor within 5 minutes of each other.
I knew it was going to be a problem, esp for the Axis side, before we ever took off.

With targets so far way they have to pretty much travel a straight line to target. Any deviation might violate the T+60 rule. The HQ raid made it just in time. BTW, I never saw any other Buff Group.