Myth: SpitXVI is "slow"

[BnZs]

Yes it would, but we already have a plane to fill that role, the spixteen.    

Before the SpitXVI was added, the SpitIX was considered quite competitive and the "noob plane of choice". I don't think anyone will deny this.  And the P-51D, 109G10 or K4, Dora9, Typhoon, and Lala were also there, so one can't say "But the set was slower back then." Now though, I am told that even the SpitVIII is not competitive enough in the LW MA, that RAF fans and noobs will be left out in the cold without free SpitXVIs, without a plane that does almost *everything* extremely well and whose only "weakness" is in reality simply a less hyper-developed strength. Sorry, I don't buy that, not one bit.

[grizz441]

All I can say is that your conviction that a light perk price (3-5 is what I was thinking of) will do nothing to reduce SpitXVI numbers is incorrect IMO.

It will reduce them, but it will only weed out the weakest spit16 pilots in the game who can't afford such small potato perk prices.  I'm saying they don't need anymore handicaps. 

Point being, if average to above average players want to fly spit16s, then no small perk price is going to stop them. 

Can you imagine?  "Sorry, can't fly the spit16, don't have 3 perks"   

[Steve]

It will reduce them, but it will only weed out the weakest spit16 pilots in the game who can't afford such small potato perk prices.  I'm saying they don't need anymore handicaps.

This is what I'm saying.

I'm not disputing that it's uber, considering it's abilites as a whole, I agree w/ BnZ that it is. I just think it isn't unbalancing the arena.

[BnZs]

This is what I'm saying.

I'm not disputing that it's uber, considering it's abilites as a whole, I agree w/ BnZ that it is. I just think it isn't unbalancing the arena.

Here we come back to the problem with that word unbalancing.

The HTC team has never officially defined what is meant by unbalancing. The benchmarks players give as a personal opinion vary widely. Some are specific enough to be applicable, some are laughably vague. Two of the most common useful definitions I've heard are 20% of usage or 15% of kills. This is specific enough, but has also never been tested in any real way with the possible exception of the C-Hog, since the other perk planes started out perked IIRC. I personally doubt that each and every perk ride, if unperked, would make the 20%/15% mentioned consistently over time in today's MA. Perhaps not even the Tempest. This makes the whole idea of using these numbers as the standard rather dubious. In any case, as I say, it has never been tested. It is clear in fact, that most of the currently perked planes started out as perked planes because the HTC team looked at their relative performance and said "Yep, that needs to be perked". It is also clear that perk status is not set in stone forevermore because apparently someone along the line decided the Ta-152's relative performance did not justify perking and made it a free plane.

[Guppy35]

Before the SpitXVI was added, the SpitIX was considered quite competitive and the "noob plane of choice". I don't think anyone will deny this.  And the P-51D, 109G10 or K4, Dora9, Typhoon, and Lala were also there, so one can't say "But the set was slower back then." Now though, I am told that even the SpitVIII is not competitive enough in the LW MA, that RAF fans and noobs will be left out in the cold without free SpitXVIs, without a plane that does almost *everything* extremely well and whose only "weakness" is in reality simply a less hyper-developed strength. Sorry, I don't buy that, not one bit.

So a Spitfire LFIXc would be fine, just not a Spitfire LFXVIe?

You are basically saying that any RAF birds beyond 43 should be perked at this point.  Tiffie is 42, Spit IX is 42 version.  Spit VIII is 43.   The 44 Spitfire XVI should be perked to go along with the Spitfire 14 of 1944 and the Tempest of 1944.  

I guess in the end I question why do you care so much?  Do you get beaten down by Spit 16s in the MA?  

More folks are flying 109K4s these days.  I think we should perk em.  I see way too many guys flying them now.  They've got other 109G variants they can fly right?  How dumb would that be?  But it's the same argument.  I could add that the 109K4 drivers tend to be better sticks too so it's even more unfair to the rest of us!  Force em into another bird!  They're unbalancing the arena!  Get rid of the 51D, I see to many!  Perk it!  Make them fly 51Bs instead.  6 50s is unfair!

Quit whining, and start shooting the 16s down.  You aren't going to make folks fly birds you want them to fly.

Why not just go into the arena, take the challenge of fighting them and do it?  

There is no point in even discussing it with you.  You've claimed some sort of high ground on this one, and there is nothing anyone could say because you've decided and that's it.

And do answer the question.  Would an LFIXc be ok with you instead of an LFXVIe?

[Steve]

Here we come back to the problem with that word unbalancing.

. You are implying that the definition varies widely. Well sure it does.  I'm not trying to foist my view of "unbalanced" on you.  

No doubt a guy who was in a plane that didn't turn as well and was slower than a spixteen would have a tough time against one. In my 51, I have to compete with the k4 which is as fast(at the alts I fly) , turns, climbs, accelerates, rolls better than my plane. K4's are fairly common. It's a pony killer.  I'm not campaigning they should be perked though.

My view that it shouldn't be perked is because it's a nice crutch for noobs. I will not be swayed from that.

Your view is that my view is invalid, because you say so. You will not be swayed from that.

OTOH, I don't feel as strongly about it as you do.  If it gets perked, I'll make sure I'm around to give you an 'attaboy".  

[grizz441]

I guess in the end I question why do you care so much?  Do you get beaten down by Spit 16s in the MA? 

Sort of what I'm wondering.  Sure I see a lot of Spit16's but they are easy to kill and easy to outrun.  I don't see the problem unless you are a P39 pilot. 

[BnZs]

Nothing you mentioned has anything to with my reasoning. Simply put, I think the SpitXVI has too many advantages over too high a % of the rest of the plane set to justify a non-perk status. That is all. How can something so simple elude so many?

 There is no point in even discussing it with you.  You've claimed some sort of high ground on this one, and there is nothing anyone could say because you've decided and that's it.

Huh...that is exactly what I think about people on the other side of the debate. I myself was on the other side of this debate once. You can probably dig up a post of me telling Krusty or someone "Perk the XVI? What are you nuts, that thing is SLOW!", or something to that effect. But I was ignorant of the fact that the SpitXVI is faster than 70% of all fighters and 41% Late War fighters. I am able to change my mind when presented with new information. I see more conformity and status quoism in people's resistance to the idea of perking the SpitXVI and willingness to take the discussion to the "low road" than I see reason.

[BnZs]

K4's are fairly common.

The K-4 is a special case. Its strengths would make it a great candidate for perkage if it didn't boast so many weaknesses to off-set them. Your Pony can escape or at least gain a lot of separation from a K-4 anytime it has the alt for a dive beyond the K-4's compressability limit. Relative roll-rate is heavily dependent on speed, at 350mph IAS I believe the Pony will hold the edge. I've been flying and shooting awhile, but between the ballistics and limited view, I might have a great deal of trouble nailing a Pony pilot who scissors or jinks about well without using most or all of my taters. And that is considering a hermetically sealed environment where one can saddle up on the Pony and take all the time one needs, not an environment where the P-51 pilot could dive, call for help, and have a darn good chance of getting it.

[E25280]

E25290:
Tell you what. Do your own research this time. Look at the list of planes that are basically as slow or slower than the SpitXVI. Out of the "slower-than" list, figure out the ones that are clearly out-turned by the SpitXVI. Don't bother with figuring out the ones that are out-climbed and out-accelerated, IIRC it will be all of them or very near it. Don't bother trying to figure out which ones are out-rolled either, it will be all of them that are not members of the Fw-190 series. And there the roll advantage is not great. No, just figure out exactly how many are both too slow to avoid the SpitXVI and have a serious disadvantage against it in a knife fight. If, after you do this, you don't understand what I mean by "effects the viability of many fighters in the MA", then I can't help you.

BTW, since you brought up the fact that the SpitXVI is only the 2nd most popular fighter, behind the P-51D, you should do similar research on the Pony. Wait, I can save you the trouble. IIRC, out of the planes slower than the P-51D, only the Fw-190As and F are clearly out-performed in all aspects of the turn. Before anyone mentions it, the Ta-152 retains energy better under Gs and sustains a superior rate of turn vs. the P-51D. And the P-51 is not superior in climb, acceleration, or *greatly* superior in turn compared to the 190 A-5 at typical MA alts. Further, the P-51 is out-rolled by and is less lethal in firepower than the 190As and F. Once again, if you can't see the difference between this and the situation with many planes vs. the SpitXVI, I can't help you.

So many words, and you still miss the point . . .

The Spixteen is killed by all other planes almost as often as it kills all other planes.  Meaning, whatever advantages it has A) can be overcome B) are not so large as to make pilot skill irrelevant and/or C) has offsetting disadvantages that you are not accounting for.

If it was so clearly and absolutely superior to all the other non-perked aircraft in the game, we would see them to a larger degree than we do.

[BnZs]

You miss the point. Out of all non-perked planes, the P-38J has the highest K/D, or at least near the top, over many tours, correct? The Ta-152 is also a strong contender in K/D over many tours. This of course means the P-38J is superior to most/all of the unperked LW planes (including the P-38L), as is the Ta-152. Or does it? Now do you see why this argument fails?

So many words, and you still miss the point . . .

The Spixteen is killed by all other planes almost as often as it kills all other planes.  Meaning, whatever advantages it has A) can be overcome B) are not so large as to make pilot skill irrelevant and/or C) has offsetting disadvantages that you are not accounting for.

If it was so clearly and absolutely superior to all the other non-perked aircraft in the game, we would see them to a larger degree than we do.

[Guppy35]

Nothing you mentioned has anything to with my reasoning. Simply put, I think the SpitXVI has too many advantages over too high a % of the rest of the plane set to justify a non-perk status. That is all. How can something so simple elude so many?


Huh...that is exactly what I think about people on the other side of the debate. I myself was on the other side of this debate once. You can probably dig up a post of me telling Krusty or someone "Perk the XVI? What are you nuts, that thing is SLOW!", or something to that effect. But I was ignorant of the fact that the SpitXVI is faster than 70% of all fighters and 41% Late War fighters. I am able to change my mind when presented with new information. I see more conformity and status quoism in people's resistance to the idea of perking the SpitXVI and willingness to take the discussion to the "low road" than I see reason.

If you can find a post anywhere from me saying the Spitfire XVI is too low, I'll take your side.  You won't find it.  If you can find a post anywhere when it comes to Spitfires from me that hasn't been reasonable in regards to what AH has, I'll also take your side.  The guys trying to talk to you were there when the discussion was going on regarding what Spits to add.  It was folks like myself, Kev and others who suggested the Spitfire Vb of 41 instead of the Vc that the game had that everyone griped about.  We went at the discussion with the idea of covering the Spitfire line up as fairly as possible so that it covered as much of the historical time frame accurately.  

What gets tiresome is folks since the beginning of time thinking the Spit in one form or another is somehow unfair to the rest of the cartoon airplane world.

So Spitfire LFIXc ok with you?

You still haven't answered my question to you.  Would you tolerate a Spitfire LFIXc instead of a Spitfire LFXVIe?

[BnZs]

You still haven't answered my question to you.  Would you tolerate a Spitfire LFIXc instead of a Spitfire LFXVIe?

Gupp, you know I don't know the minutiae of the various Spit designations as well as you do. Did you think this fact would bother me ? I *could* easily look up all I need to know, but there is no reason to do so. Because I can simply tell you that if its performance is basically identical to that of the SpitVIII in game, then I would not be in favor of perking it. If its performance is basically identical to that of the SpitXVI, then I would favor perking it. The single weakness of high-speed roll rate alone is enough to merit a different status than that of the SpitXVI IMO. I believe I have said enough times that my opinion is based on relative performance, not the *name* of the plane that asking me this is rather pointless.

[Karnak]

If HTC perks it, they perk it (they won't, it isn't imbalancing anything), but I am done talking about it to you.  You are convinced you are correct and nothing anybody else, nor any evidence, will change your mind.

[Guppy35]

So basically the clipped wing is the issue.  The better roll rate and the limited speed increase from it makes it too much.  There goes my Spit XII right out the window then.

One other fundamental AH truth you might want to factor in to your crusade to perk the 16.  Remember what the AH world was before the 16.  It was LA7s.

And the greatest gift the 16 gave to the game was the Air Quake crowd got a bird they figure they can beat anyone with, and they started to stay in and fight instead of going light speed, shooting running 3 sectors and repeating it going the other way.

I'd take a crowd of 16s that think they can out fly my 38G then a crowd of LA7s that wouldn't even consider sticking around to fight.  You won't drive the horde into lesser birds, just the one they think is the latest and greatest.  Remember 16 is a bigger number then 9 so it must be a better plane.

That in itself makes the 16 a bird that should never be perked.  The Air Quake crowd won't move back to Spit 8s or 9s.  They'll be back in LA7s.