Myth: SpitXVI is "slow"

[Guppy35]

What does not make sense is this obsession with dates and constantly bringing them up to obscure the matter of performance.

Seems to me the arenas are set up as early-war, mid-war and late-war.  You are suggesting that a plane that is a mid-war bird, be perked in late war. 

Some of us do have a bit of a history interest in these cartoon birds.  The time frame in which they were built and what AH models them on, does make a difference to me.

Why the obsession with the Spit XVI since we're talking obsessions.  Why can't you just shoot em down like the rest of us?  Would you even be talking about this if HTC had labeled it a clipped wing Spitfire IX?

[moot]

It's not about date, it's about performance. "unbalancing" - HTC.  BnZ's wrong, but if you're going to prove it you have to argue the point he's actually making, not just debasing it or discrediting him.

[BnZs]

  
The P47M,

I'd like it, saw service. Really wouldn't be tremendously better than a P-47N though...not stacked up against the low-alt uber rides anyway.

51H or late 150 octane 51D,

Uh...no? The 51H simply doesn't make the cut for inclusion. 150 octane...none of our birds have that. I'd rather the P-51's turn performance be looked at, rather than simply giving it more horsepower so it can run better.

a 190A-9 and the D9 at 2+ ata that did 400 on the deck, an uncorked Mossie, etc.

An A-9...sounds good...how about just an A-5 that isn't 12mph two slow or an A-6 to start though? Do not need the uber-Dora. Do need an up-to-snuff Mossie.

Simply perking the Spixteen and La7(if anyone still flies it anymore...talk about a great plane that has been hurt by bad press!!!) would do about as much as adding all these new-fangled models though, and be much easier.

[BnZs]

  Would you even be talking about this if HTC had labeled it a clipped wing Spitfire IX?

This implication that I am swayed by the label and not relative performance is beginning to annoy me Gupp (mind you, it was performance numbers and no other reason that changed my mind on the subject). I don't like the implication, because a person concerned with a combat flight game would have to be very, very stupid to be more concerned with what a plane is called vs. what it can do relative the other planes in the set.
 
Yet you keep repeating this question I have already answered, repeating it ad nauseum. I am beginning to think it is your take on Herr Shickegruber's methods of swaying the hoi polloi audience: "loud enough and often enough". Do not bring it up with me again.

[BnZs]

Seems to me the arenas are set up as early-war, mid-war and late-war.  You are suggesting that a plane that is a mid-war bird, be perked in late war. 

Some of us do have a bit of a history interest in these cartoon birds.  The time frame in which they were built and what AH models them on, does make a difference to me.

Hmmm...does the fact that the Me-262 shot down its first plane in July '44 and was considered operational by August effect its perk status in any way in your mind? I mean, it may or may not make HTC's cut-off date for "Mid-War" (which of course you realize is entirely arbitrary), I'm not sure But it saw service in greater numbers than some UN-perked planes (Ta-152, 3 Gun La7s, etc.) Or is this one case where you ARE willing to fall back on the dread notion of using standards of...say it with me now...performance as the perk test?

[Anaxogoras]

Why isn't the XVI available in the mid-war arena?0

[Guppy35]

Hmmm...does the fact that the Me-262 shot down its first plane in July '44 and was considered operational by August effect its perk status in any way in your mind? I mean, it may or may not make HTC's cut-off date for "Mid-War" (which of course you realize is entirely arbitrary), I'm not sure But it saw service in greater numbers than some UN-perked planes (Ta-152, 3 Gun La7s, etc.) Or is this one case where you ARE willing to fall back on the dread notion of using standards of...say it with me now...performance as the perk test?

What it seems to come down to is perception here.  And from all I can tell it's really about the roll rate of the 16.  It's the same engine as the VIII.  Both LF Spits.  Performance comparable except roll rate.  

As for the 262 there is no comparison to the Spit 16.  You are talking about the standard RAF day fighter in the ETO from 43 to the end of the war.  Spitfire LFIX/XVI being an identical airframe and the engine being the only difference, one being produced by Packard in the US and one by Rolls Royce in England. Put a Packard Merlin in a Spit IX and it becomes an XVI or vice versa.  They came off the production line at the same time.  The IX/XVI was the most produced variant of Spitfire and the LF production covered all the XVIs and 80+ percent of the IXs produced.  I don't think you limit that type of bird from the MA if for no other reason then the historical significance to the Brits.

Bottom line is you aren't ever going to convince me that the 16 is unbalancing or so good it should be perked.  And to that end I'll bow out and leave you to your crusade.  I'll go back to shooting 16s

[BnZs]

If perk worthiness is inversely proportional to production numbers, then must literally *give* approximately 3.2 perks per sortie to people for even taking off in 109 G-6s...

What it seems to come down to is perception here.  And from all I can tell it's really about the roll rate of the 16.  It's the same engine as the VIII.  Both LF Spits.  Performance comparable except roll rate.  

As for the 262 there is no comparison to the Spit 16.  You are talking about the standard RAF day fighter in the ETO from 43 to the end of the war.  Spitfire LFIX/XVI being an identical airframe and the engine being the only difference, one being produced by Packard in the US and one by Rolls Royce in England. Put a Packard Merlin in a Spit IX and it becomes an XVI or vice versa.  They came off the production line at the same time.  The IX/XVI was the most produced variant of Spitfire and the LF production covered all the XVIs and 80+ percent of the IXs produced.  I don't think you limit that type of bird from the MA if for no other reason then the historical significance to the Brits.

Bottom line is you aren't ever going to convince me that the 16 is unbalancing or so good it should be perked.  And to that end I'll bow out and leave you to your crusade.  I'll go back to shooting 16s

[BaldEagl]

I keep reading, and even BNZ has stated on numerous occasions, that the faster plane is superior as it can disengage at will. 

So, based on the evidence that he's presented in isolation of other performance data, along with his own summation of superiority, all he's proved is that the 109G-14, 109K-4, 190D-9, F4U-1, La7, P-47N, P-51B, P-51D, Ta-152, Typhoon and Yak9-U and possibly a few others should be perked if the Spit XVI were to be perked.

Now, BNZ, if you no longer believe that a faster plane can control a fight by being able to disengage at will then I'd appreciate if you'de quit stating so.

I do find it interesting that when comparing the Spit against only LW rides BNZ charachterizes it as "fair-to-middlin'".

A few "fanatical" (in the worst sense of the word) spit fans have been yelling and screaming since the spit16 came out that "it's just a 1942 bird! It's too slow! How can we compete with anything in the late war planeset?!?!? WAAAAH!!!"

And repeating these cries (lies) ad nauseum for well over a year now.

I have never seen such a post.  Please provide links to these.

[BaldEagl]

Well, I couldn't get through more than six pages of this but here's my final thought on the matter.

The Spit XVI is a fine plane in the AH inventory.  I fly it all the time and it's good but not great at everything.  It's got at least one or more advantages that can be exploited against any other plane in the plane set.

Likewise, I fly all the other planes in the plane set as well (some better than others) and virtually every one of them has an advantage that can be exploited against the Spit XVI with few exceptions but those same planes with exceptions have similar difficulty against any of what I consider the mid-range fighters (i.e. Spits, P-38's, La's, etc... those with "jack of all trades" charachteristics).  I don't mind fighting a Spit XVI in almost any other plane because I know exactly what the XVI can and can't do.

Speed is an exploitable advantage like any other but it's only one measure of performance.  BNZ has spent a lot of effort to measure this single performance measure against the rest of the plane set, then used anecdotal evidence and his own opinions to support his argument of clear superiority for the Spit XVI.  This is short sighted and not supported by clear statistical evidence on his part. 

I could argue that turn rate is the most important measure of performance and then say that the Zeke, Hurri, F4F/FM2 and others are the best planes in the game.  I could support this by saying that they can dive with almost any other plane and therefore top speed isn't an issue as long as they have a little alt.  I could also argue that speed is the primary advantage via the ability to disengage argument.

Furthermore, in BNZ's argument, he totally ignores the realities of what types of pilots use the Spit XVI, and in what types of situations it's typically used in the MA's.  He also omits arena-wide K/D ratios in his argument.  Performance is only one part of the equation in determining perkability of a particular aircraft.  He has not made a case that the Spit XVI unbalances the arena in it's environment.

Really BNZ.  I'd expect much more from you.  I'm dissapointed.

[trotter]

Really BNZ.  I'd expect much more from you.  I'm dissapointed.

Speaking of expecting more from people,

I could argue that turn rate is the most important measure of performance and then say that the Zeke, Hurri, F4F/FM2 and others are the best planes in the game.  I could support this by saying that they can dive with almost any other plane and therefore top speed isn't an issue as long as they have a little alt.

Really, the Zeke can dive with almost any other plane? Which one have you been flying?

The Hurri too?

Dive ability isnt about converting altitude into speed. That is gravity and acceleration of mass; given enough altitude, all falling items will eventually reach terminal velocity, but for a functioning airframe the effective operational velocity is the point at which their structures rip off. So, what you are saying is that, with altitude, you can get the "turners" up to their maximum operational velocity, if you point in one direction. Way too simplistic for an ACM environment.

Instead, dive ability in the combat sense is truly differentiated through control surface responsiveness at high speed. If you don't understand this, you are missing out on a large part of ACM. And the Hurri and Zeke are NOT competitive in this regard.

This is all not to mention even that the Potential E to E conversion for the "turners", as you outlined, is not done in an isolated environment. In a multiplane engagement, your current kill should always be leaving you in a good position to either
a) Get your next kill
b) Egress the fight successfully

Are you really claiming that Speed as an advantage is neutralized in a multiplane engagement because, when you are in a Hurricane, you can dive out and chase down a bandit of your choosing? Sure, you have an OK chance of catching that bandit, but what will your situation be after that kill? Comparing your situation to a hypothetical plane with a better climb rate, acceleration, or top speed who made the same dive and attack as you did, you will be worse off.

Come on, you've been around long enough to know this. I see that you were trying to outline a potential argument about subjectivity of relative performance characteristics, but it's a pretty weak argument.

[WMLute]

Speaking of expecting more from people,

Really, the Zeke can dive with almost any other plane? Which one have you been flying?

The Hurri too?

The Hurricane is an excellent diver.

Zeke holds it's Energy after the dive (too durn much imho) BUT it does suffer from horrible handling when fast like that.  If you dive away from a zeke and it follows you, don't just extend straight as they will stay with you for a long time.  Get the zeke fast, do a maneuver or two and either kill 'em, or reset the fight now that you have killed all their alt/e.

[waystin2]

HTC should have introduce the XII (344MPH SL) as a lightly perked Spitfire, which is about 9MPH faster then our current XVI.

Here! Here!

[BnZs]

Now, BNZ, if you no longer believe that a faster plane can control a fight by being able to disengage at will then I'd appreciate if you'de quit stating so.

I lean more towards saying, that when faced with an airplane that is utterly superior in every other way, the faster plane can at least run away. Not too inspiring, but better than nothing. But once again, you ignoring the fact that there are a large number of double-inferior rides that don't have the speed to disengage from SpitXVIs either.

Edit: Another mistake we make is equating what is desirable in the MA to what is desirable for r/l pilots. If you are a r/l pilot, job number one is to not get killed, even once, which obviously places speed at the top of the heap This is NOT the case with the MA. Interesting how people act like k/d is the only measurement worth caring about (even though the game itself scores players on other measurements) when it is convenient to them, then make fun of the people who fly fast planes in a boring style that leads to very large k/d's. For playing a *game* other attributes can take on as much importance as speed.

So, you want to compare SpitXVI k/d against Fw-190 D-9 k/d? Myself, I'd be interested to compare kills/*time* between the two models.

I do find it interesting that when comparing the Spit against only LW rides BNZ charachterizes it as "fair-to-middlin'".

When I compared SpitXVI against LW only rides, it was faster than 41% of them, including the P-47Ds and P-38s which it also out-climbs and out-turns rather badly at typical MA alts. People complained that it wasn't "fair" to compare it to early and mid war rides. Of course, comparing it to LW-only rides removed some Mid-War rides faster than the Spit. Ultimately, it *does* make more sense to compare it to the entire set, since the entire set is available in the LWMA, and for all intents and purposes the LW *is* the main arena.

[BnZs]

Bald:
You mischaracterize my argument badly. I have never argued the Spit16 does everything or even one thing better than *every* plane. I have argued that it does *everything* better than a large enough number of planes that it effects the viability of many models in the LW MA and thus perhaps deserves a light perk price. Speed demons can simply run away from the Spixteen, and uber-turners can try to exploit that advantage, but that leaves a very large number of more middle of the road planes that are simply out-classed.

The Spit XVI is a fine plane in the AH inventory.  I fly it all the time and it's good but not great at everything.  It's got at least one or more advantages that can be exploited against any other plane in the plane set.

This is an understatement. The SpitXVI is great at everything, except top-speed where it is merely good.