Myth: SpitXVI is "slow"

[froger]

Doing sort giving top speed at low alt a weight of "1" and leaving the other categories at zero, the SpitXVI is number 15 in top speed out of 51 unperked fighters. That means it is faster than over 70% of non-perked fighters.

1      La-7     LaLa      Russian      Fighter      L/M      6.08    6.35    8.53    5.71    7.55    6.00    5.00    6.49    5.81    2.65    6.75    6.42    7.63    2.97    2.88    1.16     6.08
2    Fw 190D-9    Shrike,Dora     German     Fighter/Attacker     M/H     6.05    6.88    7.87    7.36    8.47    6.65    4.35    6.84    6.08    4.47    3.65    3.71    10.00    2.68    4.29    1.59    6.05
3    Bf 109K-4    Gustav     German     Fighter     M/H     6.02    7.14    9.22    8.19    7.04    7.40    3.60    6.84    8.46    5.34    5.31    5.19    7.02    3.57    2.55    ---    6.02
4    P-51D    Mustang, Pony     American     Fighter/Attacker     M/H     5.87    6.73    6.62    5.91    9.08    6.25    4.75    6.49    6.08    7.69    3.54    2.40    7.52    2.31    3.71    2.78    5.87
5    Typhoon Mk I    Typhy     British     Fighter/Attacker     L/M     5.76    6.19    5.93    4.62    7.23    8.00    3.00    6.49    4.97    4.44    5.06    4.32    3.00    4.08    3.78    2.17    5.76
6    P-47N    Thunderbolt, Jug     American     Fighter/Attacker     M/H     5.72    6.80    5.46    5.49    8.44    4.50    6.50    6.05    3.42    8.88    4.70    1.79    8.30    2.76    6.02    3.52    5.72
7    P-51B    Mustang, Pony     American     Fighter/Attacker     M/H     5.64    6.74    6.44    6.35    10.00    6.00    5.00    6.27    5.98    7.91    4.17    2.31    7.24    1.85    2.77    2.07    5.64
8    Ta 152H         German     Fighter     M/H     5.62    6.50    6.70    6.08    8.86    5.00    6.00    5.83    6.30    6.92    4.25    4.41    7.34    4.59    3.83    ---    5.62
9    Bf 109G-14    Gustav     German     Fighter/Attacker     M/H     5.60    6.39    9.25    7.94    7.04    7.00    4.00    6.05    7.83    4.96    6.10    5.37    7.02    3.57    2.55    1.49    5.60
10    F4U-1    Corsair, Hog     American     Fighter/Attacker     M/H     5.53    6.57    5.47    5.05    7.55    5.00    6.00    5.83    4.27    6.61    7.24    5.02    7.87    2.31    4.42    1.52    5.53
11    Yak-9U         Russian     Fighter     L/M     5.53    6.46    6.87    5.71    7.75    7.00    4.00    5.61    7.15    3.56    5.56    5.02    7.73    2.07    1.36    ---    5.53
12    La-5FN         Russian     Fighter     L/M     5.45    5.90    7.77    6.21    7.99    6.50    4.50    6.49    5.64    2.58    6.59    6.07    7.45    2.29    2.65    1.16    5.45
13    F4U-1D    Corsair, Hog, D Hog     American     Fighter/Attacker     M/H     5.30    6.32    6.06    5.22    8.81    5.00    6.00    5.83    4.15    6.70    7.20    5.11    8.16    2.31    4.50    2.99    5.30
14    Bf 109G-2    Gustav     German     Fighter/Attacker     M/H     5.15    6.14    8.27    7.10    6.57    7.00    4.00    6.05    7.87    4.98    6.50    5.89    7.17    1.75    2.16    1.23    5.15
15    Spitfire Mk XVI

As you can see, the only faster fighters that even have a claim to being more maneuverable are the F4Us, and that is debatable, while there are many slower fighters that are indisputably less maneuverable.

A search for top speed, "high alt", yields the following result:
1      Bf 109K-4     Gustav      German      Fighter      M/H      6.02    7.14    9.22    8.19    7.04    7.40    3.60    6.84    8.46    5.34    5.31    5.19    7.02    3.57    2.55    ---      7.14
2    Fw 190D-9    Shrike,Dora     German     Fighter/Attacker     M/H     6.05    6.88    7.87    7.36    8.47    6.65    4.35    6.84    6.08    4.47    3.65    3.71    10.00    2.68    4.29    1.59    6.88
3    P-47N    Thunderbolt, Jug     American     Fighter/Attacker     M/H     5.72    6.80    5.46    5.49    8.44    4.50    6.50    6.05    3.42    8.88    4.70    1.79    8.30    2.76    6.02    3.52    6.80
4    P-51B    Mustang, Pony     American     Fighter/Attacker     M/H     5.64    6.74    6.44    6.35    10.00    6.00    5.00    6.27    5.98    7.91    4.17    2.31    7.24    1.85    2.77    2.07    6.74
5    P-51D    Mustang, Pony     American     Fighter/Attacker     M/H     5.87    6.73    6.62    5.91    9.08    6.25    4.75    6.49    6.08    7.69    3.54    2.40    7.52    2.31    3.71    2.78    6.73
6    F4U-1    Corsair, Hog     American     Fighter/Attacker     M/H     5.53    6.57    5.47    5.05    7.55    5.00    6.00    5.83    4.27    6.61    7.24    5.02    7.87    2.31    4.42    1.52    6.57
7    Ta 152H         German     Fighter     M/H     5.62    6.50    6.70    6.08    8.86    5.00    6.00    5.83    6.30    6.92    4.25    4.41    7.34    4.59    3.83    ---    6.50
8    Yak-9U         Russian     Fighter     L/M     5.53    6.46    6.87    5.71    7.75    7.00    4.00    5.61    7.15    3.56    5.56    5.02    7.73    2.07    1.36    ---    6.46
9    Bf 109G-14    Gustav     German     Fighter/Attacker     M/H     5.60    6.39    9.25    7.94    7.04    7.00    4.00    6.05    7.83    4.96    6.10    5.37    7.02    3.57    2.55    1.49    6.39
10    La-7    LaLa     Russian     Fighter     L/M     6.08    6.35    8.53    5.71    7.55    6.00    5.00    6.49    5.81    2.65    6.75    6.42    7.63    2.97    2.88    1.16    6.35
11    F4U-1D    Corsair, Hog, D Hog     American     Fighter/Attacker     M/H     5.30    6.32    6.06    5.22    8.81    5.00    6.00    5.83    4.15    6.70    7.20    5.11    8.16    2.31    4.50    2.99    6.32
12    P-47D-11    Thunderbolt, Jug     American     Fighter/Attacker     M/H     5.12    6.25    5.57    5.41    8.09    4.75    6.25    5.83    3.75    4.41    5.82    3.53    7.73    2.76    6.02    1.20    6.25
13    P-47D-40    Thunderbolt, Jug     American     Fighter/Attacker     M/H     5.06    6.23    6.27    5.99    8.47    4.75    6.25    5.83    3.61    7.75    4.96    2.40    7.73    2.76    6.02    3.52    6.23
14    Typhoon Mk I    Typhy     British     Fighter/Attacker     L/M     5.76    6.19    5.93    4.62    7.23    8.00    3.00    6.49    4.97    4.44    5.06    4.32    3.00    4.08    3.78    2.17    6.19
15    Spitfire Mk XVI

So while some low-alt speed demons loose their place, the Spit16 retains its #15 slot. Once again, only the F4U is even arguably more maneuverable than the Spit16.

Doing a sort that gives equal weight to top speed at both high and low alt, once again the Spit16 makes 15th place out of 51 fighters.

     Bf 109K-4     Gustav      German      Fighter      M/H      6.02    7.14    9.22    8.19    7.04    7.40    3.60    6.84    8.46    5.34    5.31    5.19    7.02    3.57    2.55    ---      13.16
2    Fw 190D-9    Shrike,Dora     German     Fighter/Attacker     M/H     6.05    6.88    7.87    7.36    8.47    6.65    4.35    6.84    6.08    4.47    3.65    3.71    10.00    2.68    4.29    1.59    12.93
3    P-51D    Mustang, Pony     American     Fighter/Attacker     M/H     5.87    6.73    6.62    5.91    9.08    6.25    4.75    6.49    6.08    7.69    3.54    2.40    7.52    2.31    3.71    2.78    12.60
4    P-47N    Thunderbolt, Jug     American     Fighter/Attacker     M/H     5.72    6.80    5.46    5.49    8.44    4.50    6.50    6.05    3.42    8.88    4.70    1.79    8.30    2.76    6.02    3.52    12.52
5    La-7    LaLa     Russian     Fighter     L/M     6.08    6.35    8.53    5.71    7.55    6.00    5.00    6.49    5.81    2.65    6.75    6.42    7.63    2.97    2.88    1.16    12.43
6    P-51B    Mustang, Pony     American     Fighter/Attacker     M/H     5.64    6.74    6.44    6.35    10.00    6.00    5.00    6.27    5.98    7.91    4.17    2.31    7.24    1.85    2.77    2.07    12.38
7    Ta 152H         German     Fighter     M/H     5.62    6.50    6.70    6.08    8.86    5.00    6.00    5.83    6.30    6.92    4.25    4.41    7.34    4.59    3.83    ---    12.12
8    F4U-1    Corsair, Hog     American     Fighter/Attacker     M/H     5.53    6.57    5.47    5.05    7.55    5.00    6.00    5.83    4.27    6.61    7.24    5.02    7.87    2.31    4.42    1.52    12.10
9    Bf 109G-14    Gustav     German     Fighter/Attacker     M/H     5.60    6.39    9.25    7.94    7.04    7.00    4.00    6.05    7.83    4.96    6.10    5.37    7.02    3.57    2.55    1.49    11.99
10    Yak-9U         Russian     Fighter     L/M     5.53    6.46    6.87    5.71    7.75    7.00    4.00    5.61    7.15    3.56    5.56    5.02    7.73    2.07    1.36    ---    11.99
11    Typhoon Mk I    Typhy     British     Fighter/Attacker     L/M     5.76    6.19    5.93    4.62    7.23    8.00    3.00    6.49    4.97    4.44    5.06    4.32    3.00    4.08    3.78    2.17    11.95
12    F4U-1D    Corsair, Hog, D Hog     American     Fighter/Attacker     M/H     5.30    6.32    6.06    5.22    8.81    5.00    6.00    5.83    4.15    6.70    7.20    5.11    8.16    2.31    4.50    2.99    11.62
13    P-47D-11    Thunderbolt, Jug     American     Fighter/Attacker     M/H     5.12    6.25    5.57    5.41    8.09    4.75    6.25    5.83    3.75    4.41    5.82    3.53    7.73    2.76    6.02    1.20    11.37
14    La-5FN         Russian     Fighter     L/M     5.45    5.90    7.77    6.21    7.99    6.50    4.50    6.49    5.64    2.58    6.59    6.07    7.45    2.29    2.65    1.16    11.35
15    Spitfire Mk XVI    


So, in conclusion. 1. The machine is faster than 70% of the unperked plane set. To say it is relatively slow is simply a lie. I would appreciate this lie not being repeated in the future. 2. No unperked plane that is faster is more maneuverable, except arguably the F4Us, and that is *highly* debatable. (Slightly smaller sustained turn radius, greatly inferior sustained turn rate) 3. Of the 36 planes, or, 70% of the unperked set that is slower than the Spit16, many are inferior in turn, and nearly all are inferior in climb, acceleration, and roll.



Wuuuuuutttttttt!

[BnZs]

if its easy to do, i dont have anything to prove, just interested

Well, I just did a weighted sort set to 1 for both "low alt" and "high alt" top speed. Then I took the whole list and cut everything except the planes that can only be had in LW out of it. Since you insist I should remove early and mid war planes *slower* than the SpitXVI, it is only fair to also remove the mid-war planes that are *faster*, such as the F4U-1 and P-51B. If I had made any gross errors in my list whittling, please let me know.

After that, the list looks like this
(The F4U 1-A will fit in there somewhere above the SpitXVI*)

1. 109K4
2. Fw190D9
3. P-51D
4. P-47N
5. La7
6. Ta 152H
7. 109 G-14
8. Yak 9-U
9. SpitXVI
10.P-47D-40
11.P-47D-25
12.P-38
13.Fw-190 A-8
14.Fw-190 F-8
15.Ki-84
16.N1K2-J
17.*

So, out of 17 unperked LW planes, the SpitXVI is faster than 7, or 41% of them. That is still fair-to-middlin', not "slow", unless one also considers the P-47D-40, 190 A-8, P-38, and Ki-84 as "slow". Which no one does. Note that of the LW planes faster than the SpitXVI, the only one that can be considered equally/more maneuverable is the F4U-1A. Note that of the LW planes slower than the SpitXVI, most are decidedly less maneuverable. Whether the SpitXVI is more maneuverable than the Ki or N1K is debatable, we'll call it equal. 

[Kazaa]

Unperk the Spit 14 and F4U-1C.

haha...

[JunkyII]

Spit 16 is too good we got it

[Lusche]

Ranking speed with 1, 2, 3, 4... is way too simplistic to give an accurate picture of how the aircraft stacks up against the competition.

If you compare mine and your chart you will see that both curves are basically the same. The picture is the same.
Also in actual combat, the absolute speed numbers are important and much more meaningful to a player. Zscore values don't tell much. Is a difference of "0.5" much? Not much? what does it say?
Seeing that there is a 20mph or just a mere 1mph difference between any two planes gives a much better picture.

[Motherland]

Ranking speed with 1, 2, 3, 4... is way too simplistic to give an accurate picture of how the aircraft stacks up against the competition.

Here are the Zscores for speed on the deck.  Zscore = (speed - average speed) / standard deviation

(Image removed from quote.)

Why? I don't really understand how doing all of that really has any bearing on the aircraft's actual relative performance.

[Lusche]

Lusche, insult is the last refuge out the out-argued. I would have expected this out of the typical trash who for some reason want to continue arguing after their arguments are proven to have come from a position of ignorance. But out  of you? Shameful.

There is not a single insult in my comment.
You seem to be on a mission to get the 16 perked as your ever increasing number of threads and posts about that topic do show. And it's you that is still completely ignoring HTC's own definition of "perk status" and the reality of LW MA combat.


As far as this topic is concerned, I'm outta here.

[Karnak]

Who has ever claimed the Mk XVI is slow?  I have never seen such a claim.

[Anaxogoras]

One thing it allows me to say is that the A6M2 is slower than the Tempest is fast.   Here is a good quote from 442w30, a trained statistician and the originator of Zscores for AH:

The Z-Score curve is a bell curve.  -2.00 = a score that is just over 2% better than all the rest of the POSSIBLE scores. Possible not necessarily meaning exisiting.  -1 = better than just under 16%, 0.00 = right at 50%, 1.00 = better than just over 84%, 2.00 = better than just over 97%. So you see (or maybe not) that the better or worse a score is, the further up the curve it is and in reality the more impressive it is. 

Because of the nature of Z-Scores and the bell curve, a 2.00 in one category is the SAME as a 2.00 in another, or any other like number.  Z-Scores turn apples and oranges comparisons into Apples to apples.  That is true of the raw z-scores of course.

[xbrit]

Why not just play and have fun instead of trying to create a soap opera out of it.

[Krusty]

A few "fanatical" (in the worst sense of the word) spit fans have been yelling and screaming since the spit16 came out that "it's just a 1942 bird! It's too slow! How can we compete with anything in the late war planeset?!?!? WAAAAH!!!"

And repeating these cries (lies) ad nauseum for well over a year now.

When confronted with cold, hard, facts, these lies/cries become self-evident.

BnZs and I disagree on a LOT of things, but for once, he was spotting a sudden (and frequent) resurgence of these "spit16 is too slow!" lies as of late that I was also taking note of! He took the time to post about it and set things straight.

EDIT: Usually such threads include comments about adding +25 boosted spit14s or +28 boosted spit16s or whatever plane that would more than double the climb rate of a 109K, fly faster than a P51, and still turn as tightly as a spitV with 2 (or 4, depending on the request) single-hit-killer hispanos on the wings to boot. They justify adding these planes by saying the spit16 can't compete, being so "early" a model.

[moot]

So what?  Let em have their late war monsters.

[Masherbrum]

The Ki-61 will turn with a Spixteen with EASE.   Spixteens are for kids.   

[Rich46yo]

I flew a 16 today for the first time in weeks. I took another spit and then a Mossie, then ran home.

Afterwards I felt suitably guilty. Hair and warts even started growing on my hand.

[Karnak]

A few "fanatical" (in the worst sense of the word) spit fans have been yelling and screaming since the spit16 came out that "it's just a 1942 bird! It's too slow! How can we compete with anything in the late war planeset?!?!? WAAAAH!!!"

Find one such post.  I dare you.

You acused me of such just the other day because you are too stupid to be able to read, not because I posted that.


And I never even used the effing thing.  It isn't my bird.

You and BnZ are bleeping irrational when it comes your your mindless hatred of Spitfires.