Ta-152

[funked]

Can you imagine taking a Mustang, swapping an Allison for a Merlin, changing the propellor, changing the radiator and oil cooler bath, moving the carburetor inlet, changing the ailerons, adding fuel tanks, moving guns from the nose to the wings, completely changing the shape and structure of the rear fuselage and canopy, and still calling it a Mustang?

It's called a P-51D Mustang.  


[This message has been edited by funked (edited 11-01-2000).]

[flakbait]

I'm not sure if these quotes from Joe Baugher are true or not, but here they are:

 

The requirements of the second phase were to be met by the Fw 190 Ra-4D. Although it was based broadly on the Fw 190, the Ra-4D embodied a complete structural redesign and numerous aerodynamic refinements. It was from the start to use a turbosupercharged Daimler-Benz DB 603 engine, the engine which Kurt Tank had preferred all along.

Dipl.-Ing Kurt Tank had by this time obtained almost legendary status as a result of his successful aircraft designs, and the
RLM decided to honor him by using the prefix "Ta" instead of "Fw" for aircraft coming out of his design bureau. Since the
Ra-2 and Ra-3 were considered sufficiently different from their predecessors to deserve a new designation, they were the
first to receive the new "Ta" prefix. They were both redesignated Ta 152 by the end of 1942. Logic would seem to dictate
that the Ra-2 and Ra-3 be designated Ta 152H and K, since they followed on directly from the Fw 190F and G (I and J
were not used as suffixes). However, Tank had a different idea. He proposed that the short-span Ra-2 be designated Ta
152B, where the B stood for Begeleitjäger or Escort Fighter, and the long-span Ra-3 be designated Ta 152H, where the H
stood for Hohenjäger or High-Altitude Fighter. Such was the prestige of Kurt Tank that he immediately got his way. The
Ra-4D was assigned the designation Ta 153.

 

FOCKE-WULF 190 A-9

Next and last production series of the A version aircraft was the Fw 190A-9. Previously, it was thought this plane would
have been powered by a 1765 kW (2400 hp) BMW 801 F engine. But the BMW factory had not started production of
these engines in time and, as a replacement, the 1470 kW (2000 hp) BMW 801 S engine was used with a more efficient, 14
blade fan. These engines were delivered as a power unit BMW 801 TS because of their need for a more efficient radiator
and bigger oil tank mounted side by side. Both were in the form of a ring ahead of the engine under an armor cover with
thickness increased from 6 to 10 mm. Large area, three bladed wooden propeller with constant speed mechanism should
have been used as a standard, but for unknown reasons the majority of the A-9 planes (as opposed to F-9) had the metal
VDM 9-12176 A propellers, as used in the previous version. One difference in the airframe between A-9 and A-8 model
was a larger cockpit canopy, adapted from the Fw 190F-8 version. A few planes got tail sections with an enlarged tail as
provided for Ta 152 fighters. Armament and Rustsatz kits were the same as in the A-8 version, but in many cases, on the
pilot's request external part of the wing mounted MG 151/20 E cannons were removed.

Minor goof on my part. I remembered that one variant of the 190 got the tail sections from Ta-152's. It was the A9, not D9. Oops.




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Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School
"My art is the wings of an aircraft through the skies, my music the deep hum of a prop as it slices the air, my thrill the thunder of guns tearing asunder an enemy plane."
Flakbait
19 September 2000

[funked]

Flakbait I forgot about that.  Yes the Ta 152 empennage assembly was used on some Fw 190A and Fw 190F aircraft.  Of course in those cases it was used without the fuselage "plug" that was inserted between center fuselage and empennage assemblies on the Fw 190D and Ta 152H.

[SnakeEyes]

Then why does Harmann's book refer to a -A and -B developments of the Ta-152 (even though they didn't proceed to development)?  I guess that is what is throwing me off.

PS - That *thing* with the Allison most certainly ISN'T a Mustang in my book.  

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by funked:
Can you imagine taking a Mustang, swapping an Allison for a Merlin, changing the propellor, changing the radiator and oil cooler bath, moving the carburetor inlet, changing the ailerons, adding fuel tanks, moving guns from the nose to the wings, completely changing the shape and structure of the rear fuselage and canopy, and still calling it a Mustang?

It's called a P-51D Mustang.    

LOL!!! good one, Funked  

[SnakeEyes]

Funked, explain to me why Harmann refers to V19, V20, and V21 as the prototypes for the Ta-152A?

PS - Ram, stop being an splat! pif!, apparently only you and Funked here think that the 152 doesn't represent an new aircraft.  Personally I think that the addition of the Merlin created an aircraft that is quite different from the 51A.  Though I still think the changes involved in ultimately producing the 152 are greater still.

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[This message has been edited by SnakeEyes (edited 11-01-2000).]

[funked]

They might have been prototypes for a Ta 152A, but they weren't Ta 152A's.  And no Ta 152A's were produced.  The project was cancelled and continued under Ta 152C and Ta 152H.  Now I wonder why they chose those letters?

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 11-01-2000).]

[SnakeEyes]

Funked, that's not the point.  The point is that had the "A" been produced, which was entirely possible, it would delegitamize the progression you outline above.  You drop the C and E versions into the mix (hell, how much production was done on the E?), but ignore the A & B because they are inconvenient to your hypothesis.

With regard to the use of "C" & "H", there is nothing in Harmann's book that indicates that either of these aircraft were taken from the "A" version.  The "C" was a derivative of the B, based on a change of requirements, and the H a high-altitude version of the "C".  Maybe the "H" is for "hoch", eh?

Are you arguing that Harmann is making-up the designations, and that these aircraft were never referenced as an "A" version?  Sorry, but since the Deitmar was actually involved in the program, I'll have to take his word for it.  Perhaps it was informal as there was never a production version with the "A" appelation, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't referred to as the "A" in internal discussions of it.  Where else would this naming come from?

PS - I understand your argument that the "A" didn't exist, as there was never a preproduction or production version of it (e.g.: A-0/A-1), but that didn't stop you from referencing the E, which I can't find any preproduction or production references regarding.  But where does this reference to the A and B come from?  To me it clearly implies that Harmann knew that the prototypes involved would have led to A and B preproduction models had that decision been made.  The fact that the potential for a 152A or B existed indicates, to me, that the link between the 152 and 190 designations isn't so tight.

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[This message has been edited by SnakeEyes (edited 11-01-2000).]

[funked]

Well we have:

Fw 190A
Fw 190B
Fw 190D
Fw 190F
Fw 190G

and

Ta 152C
Ta 152H
Ta 152E (not certain)

as the types that were produced.

Is it just a coincidence that the letters mesh together in a series A through H?

I dunno.  We'll have to exhume Kurt Tank and clone him to find out.  

[funked]

PS My understanding is that V19 crashed, and V20 and V21 were used as Ta 152C prototypes.

[SnakeEyes]

My reading is that, once the decision was made to not progress further with the 152A, the v20 and v21 were to be converted to be the Ta-152C prototypes, much like the 152A was converted from 190-A0 bodies that were originally intended to be 190C prototypes.  The idea, I suspect, is that it would be much easier to modify existing prototypes than start from scratch.  Anything more is reading alot in IMO.

For what it is worth, there are a series copied schematics on pages 30, 31, and 31 that explicitly refer to the Ta-152A & B prototypes as "Ta 152 A" and "Ta 152 B".

PS - The "H" in Ta 152 H wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that the 152H prototypes came from the Hohenjager program, would it?  Especially given that the "opportunity for Focke-Wulf to develop the Ta 152 H resulted from the failure of the Me 109 H high-altitude fighter..."?  Nah... silly of me.  

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[This message has been edited by SnakeEyes (edited 11-01-2000).]

[flakbait]

Note the text highlighted in bold:

 

They were both redesignated Ta 152 by the end of 1942. Logic would seem to dictate
that the Ra-2 and Ra-3 be designated Ta 152H and K, since they followed on directly from the Fw 190F and G (I and J
were not used as suffixes). However, Tank had a different idea. He proposed that the short-span Ra-2 be designated Ta
152B, where the B stood for Begeleitjäger or Escort Fighter, and the long-span Ra-3 be designated Ta 152H, where the H
stood for Hohenjäger or High-Altitude Fighter. Such was the prestige of Kurt Tank that he immediately got his way. The
Ra-4D was assigned the designation Ta 153.

From my above post regarding the Ta-152 parts being used in Fw-190 A-9s. Just as a hint, read an entire post before asking a question. Someone might have already answered it.  




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Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School
"My art is the wings of an aircraft through the skies, my music the deep hum of a prop as it slices the air, my thrill the thunder of guns tearing asunder an enemy plane."
Flakbait
19 September 2000

[SnakeEyes]

thx Flakbait... I had thought that the H was from Hohenjager.

Funked, the problem with your argument (besides the fact that we now have some relative confirmation on where some of the designations came from), is that the aircraft were designated A, B, etc., prior to going preproduction, and not the reverse (designations occurring during preproduction or later).  A & B designations can and did exist as the schematics in Harmann's book demonstrate, and they are germaine even if they ultimately didn't go into production.  Moreover, as the history of the original 190 series demonstrates, the Germans used a combination of incremental designations (e.g.: A, B, C, etc) as well as purpose-related designations (e.g.: 190S = Schulflugzeug or "training plane", 152H = Hohenjager or "high altitide fighter"), so we cannot simply assume that the 152 designations were 'incrementally' filling unused Fw190 designations.

Ultimately, there's alot of evidence that the Germans recognized that the Ta152 had evolved into a new type of aircraft with its own variants.

[This message has been edited by SnakeEyes (edited 11-02-2000).]

[Dinger]

Just one point -o-o-o:

You give two pieces of evidence for functional designation: "Schulflugzeug" and "Hohenjaeger".
Trainers are not combat aircraft. Carrier-launched craft are likewise specialized modifications.

"Hohenjaeger" is a case of petitio principii: that's what you're trying to prove, so you can't use it as evidence for that conclusion.
So that line of reasoning isn't convincing.

Furthermore, Flakbait's post if anything proves that it was not normal practice to use functional designations instead of incremental ones -- "Such was Tank's prestige...".  Moreover, it claims that the aircraft should have been designated "H and K" as they followed on the 190F and 190G.  That is a strong argument for the 152 being a variant.  Had the LW considered the 152 an entirely new aircraft, the whole debate concerning what stupid letter to give it would have been much different.

[This message has been edited by Dinger (edited 11-02-2000).]

[SnakeEyes]

Points granted Dinger, but the 152 was an oddball... throughout much of the process (especially early on, it is clear that they considered it to be a 190.  However, as it evolved it becomes evident that they began to consider it to be a new aircraft type that evolved from the 190.  Heck... the v19/v20/v21 are more fully called "Fw 190 v19/Fw 190 v20/Fw 190 v21" and it is only later in the process that the new prototypes start being termed "Ta 152 vX".  Point being, I think the mixed terminology across the board is a direct result of the 152 evolving from the 190, but not actually being a variant of the 190.

I think the creation of a 109H as part of the Hohenjager program is a pretty good piece of evidence as to the derivation of the 152H and that the H is for Hohenjager.


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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=