What we need are some What If planes

[Die Hard]

There were no daylight versions of the He219 that I have ever heard of.

There were no daylight version per se, but for daylight scouting they removed the flame dampeners and radar antennas leaving only the stubs (not the internal radar equipment though).

[moot]

Half your replies miss the point.

Are you sure you want to imply that the Fw 190A-8 has no place in AH?

A-B produced at same time - Yeah I know about that. A2s not having the 103 and simply being refitted/renamed B2. 

103s left off to save weight - I'll back this one up in a bit. The gist is they were left off because 4x20mm was deemed enough.

Hints - Look at the full round-up of historical events, documents, comments on the plane. It fell short of projected specs. It was underpowered.

Heavy/fast - That's not the point.  Lugging that mass to whatever top speed the 219 had wouldn't be a quick thing. Somehow I think you know this but choose to repeat the off-topic drag bullpoop. Nowhere is my argument that the 219's heavy weight would kill its top speed.  Only that it would take forever to get there. F=MA

The A8. I don't even know what the point of replying to this one is. You have to be delusional to think the A8 is anything but a lump of lead. The 47 is almost as much of a sitting duck once you've slowed it down. It's dead meat without altitude below it to regain some speed. That I'm implying the A8 has no place in AH - huh? what?

Forum politics - Here you are making such a big deal out of it though. I don't give a rat's about forum politics and don't see what the flup you're on about there. The fact is that the 219 and 410 are redundant, that this argument started with you replying to a thread titled "What we NEED are some what-if planes" where someone asserted that the 219 wouldn't see much use among other reasons because it wouldn't be maneuverable enough. Nothing political there. Nor in the fact that the 219 isn't going to show up anytime soon because of the two dozen+ other models more NEEDED than it, of which the 410 is one.  And after the latter, the 219's going to be a hard sell for most players when there's already planes that do what the 219 does and more. Argument which you started by contradicting. Nothing about politics there either.

The A20 better than mid-war single engine fighters - which are those?

100hp difference on a 20 thousand pound plane, isn't as good as no different?  Alright, whatever.

P47 most successful plane of WWII - Not the topic here: this game's environment is, and there the 47 is definitely overweight for dogfighting.

"The B25H has huge firepower and…actually sees a good deal of use in the MA." - You can't be serious.. You're pretending to miss the point.

"Viability is irrelevant. We got the B-25 didn’t we? Not exactly the most viable choice of addition, and certainly very redundant performance wise."  You're comparing the B-25 series to the He 219?  Seriously?

A20-109G2 turning radius: It's a paper figure that probably makes the A20 jocks all warm and fuzzy. Reality is totally different. You don't just do flat circles without flaps. There's no dogfighting parity to match that radius parity.  So no, it's not impressive at all.  An A20 isn't an impressive dogfighting opponent.

“quick” rather than “fast”. English isn't my first language. Leave it to you to not see the argument being made and instead autistically miss the point when the rhetoric paints a big arrow at it.

404 mph is very impressive with those draggy antennas and flame dampeners. Imagine how fast it would have been without them.

How fast an AH 219 would be with DB603Ls?

BK5 uneffective? 

[Die Hard]

Half your replies miss the point.

Then perhaps you should make your points more clear.

BK5 uneffective? 

Quite ineffective yes. They couldn't hit anything with them. Did a good job on tanks in the ground attack role though.

[moot]

What.. Did the BK5 shoot sideways or something?

[MiloMorai]

There were no daylight version per se, but for daylight scouting they removed the flame dampeners and radar antennas leaving only the stubs (not the internal radar equipment though).

Nice pic of FE 612, Heinkel He219A-0,  W.Nr.210903, at Freeman Field, Seymour Indiana, USA. For shipping to the USA, all sensitive equipment, such as antennas, were removed

[Die Hard]

How about you try the “reply” button rather than the “modify” button next time hmm?

A-B produced at same time - Yeah I know about that. A2s not having the 103 and simply being refitted/renamed B2. 

No, the A-reihe served alongside the B-reihe to the end of the war.

Hints - Look at the full round-up of historical events, documents, comments on the plane. It fell short of projected specs. It was underpowered.

Why don’t you do that instead? Give me facts, not hints please.

The A8. I don't even know what the point of replying to this one is. You have to be delusional to think the A8 is anything but a lump of lead. The 47 is almost as much of a sitting duck once you've slowed it down. It's dead meat without altitude below it to regain some speed. That I'm implying the A8 has no place in AH - huh? what?

You’re saying the He 219 has no place in AH aren’t you? Since you compared it to the 190A-8 I have to assume you don’t think it has no place either. A “lump of lead” you say… A lump of lead that has a better k/d than most fighters in the game including some of the “big five”. That’s a pretty awesome lump of lead.

Forum politics - Here you are making such a big deal out of it though. I don't give a rat's about forum politics and don't see what the flup you're on about there. The fact is that the 219 and 410 are redundant, that this argument started with you replying to a thread titled "What we NEED are some what-if planes" where someone asserted that the 219 wouldn't see much use among other reasons because it wouldn't be maneuverable enough. Nothing political there. Nor in the fact that the 219 isn't going to show up anytime soon because of the two dozen+ other models more NEEDED than it, of which the 410 is one.  And after the latter, the 219's going to be a hard sell for most players when there's already planes that do what the 219 does and more. Argument which you started by contradicting. Nothing about politics there either.

Then why are you making such a fuzz? I couldn’t care less what you think may or may not be included or deemed “needed” by HTC; I’ll be happy with whatever they decide to add to the game. I just added the He 219 to a wish list and you almost seem to take offence to the very idea, and that the He 219 is in “competition” to your Me 410. You’re a very strange person Moot.

The A20 better than mid-war single engine fighters - which are those?

I can’t speak for the A-20 since I never flew it much, but I can speak for the 110G. I’d say it is pretty even with the P-38L at typical MA altitudes. The 110G is 25 mph slower and climbs 500 feet less per minute, but it is more maneuverable and has a more lethal gun package. I consider it superior to all the P-47D’s; equal climb rate, 20 mph slower, but much more maneuverable. The 110 will give a Spit IX and 109G6 a good run for their money, being about equal in speed (109 a bit faster, Spit slightly slower) and maneuverability, but worse climb.

P47 most successful plane of WWII - Not the topic here: this game's environment is, and there the 47 is definitely overweight for dogfighting.

I thought we were adding planes to the MA, not the dueling arena. Try fighting Widewing in a Thunderbolt. Better yet, try fighting two Thunderbolts that have altitude and who know how to support each other; bring a buddy, you’ll need one.

"The B25H has huge firepower and…actually sees a good deal of use in the MA." - You can't be serious.. You're pretending to miss the point.

You’re arguing that the He 219 wouldn’t see much use in the MA because it is “redundant” and “underpowered” and “dogmeat”… And you used the B-25H as an example. Bad choice.

"Viability is irrelevant. We got the B-25 didn’t we? Not exactly the most viable choice of addition, and certainly very redundant performance wise."  You're comparing the B-25 series to the He 219?  Seriously?

In terms of HTC being willing to add planes that are “redundant” and “dogmeat” in the late war MA… Yeah.

A20-109G2 turning radius: It's a paper figure that probably makes the A20 jocks all warm and fuzzy. Reality is totally different. You don't just do flat circles without flaps. There's no dogfighting parity to match that radius parity.  So no, it's not impressive at all.  An A20 isn't an impressive dogfighting opponent.

Again with the “dogfighting”…

What.. Did the BK5 shoot sideways or something?

No it shot very straight, but the pilots didn’t. It is very difficult to hit a moving target shooting from a moving platform when your weapon only fires 45 rounds per minute and has only 22 rounds in the clip.

During the trials with ZG 26 in February of 1944 the test staffel shot down several aircraft, but only with the internal MG151s. They simply couldn’t get hits with the BK 5. Despite this Göring ordered the weapon into service and not surprising it was proven a total failure.

As for firepower:

BK 5, 45 rounds per minute, 250 grams of explosives per minute.
MG 151, 700 rounds per minute, 840 grams of explosives per minute.
MK 108, 600 rounds per minute, 3200 grams of explosives per minute.

The BK 5/KWK 5’s only success as an aircraft gun was as a tank buster; firing hartkern rounds.

[Die Hard]

Nice pic of FE 612, Heinkel He219A-0,  W.Nr.210903, at Freeman Field, Seymour Indiana, USA. For shipping to the USA, all sensitive equipment, such as antennas, were removed

Thank you, I liked it too.

[moot]

I think there must be some kinda cultural barrier. I do think you're a thick old squeak who'd rather argue semantics than the real arguments, but that's something else.  I'm not offended, I'm not interested in politics, I'm just arguing what I see as true.  The 219 is redundant as far as what to add to the AH plane set goes, right now. That's been clear since the start of the argument, except thru whatever you've got in your eyes.

I'm not saying the 219 has no place in AH.  I have no idea how you figure that. Maybe it's the thick old squeak part.  The A8 is a lump of lead. That's not tantamount to saying it doesnt belong in AH. The A8 K/D is as irrelevant as the Spit16's is to its performance.  End of story.

You didn't add the 219 to "some wishlist", that's got nothing to do with the argument. You argued specifically that it would be maneuverable as a P38 and that it wouldn't fare less well than the 410 in the game. Which it isn't and would.  It turned out to be a fuzz because you're busier playing semantics, e.g. making a fuzz out of 100hp - which changes the powerloading by something like 3% - not being a negligible difference; if you didn't have an agenda here (who's playing politics?) you'd have admitted that it means nothing in this argument since its so marginal, and if the 603A makes 1850hp at 7kft as it's quoted in a couple of places. Or that the BK5 isn't effectively as lethal as 2x108 and 2x103.  What the hell are you smoking to figure that a gun that can fire and hit from as far as the BK5 won't be killing whatever it's aimed at in two rounds?  In practice it doesn't matter if the 108 and 103 shoot out more rounds in 1sec.  Nor does having 2x108+2x103+2x151 make as much sense as e.g. 6x151. 
If I were playing politics I wouldn't bring up that that 219's flaps and ailerons actually add up to a flat turning performance that's about as good as the A20 or better -- which isn't too bad but does nothing to save 219 from being a lead magnet thanks to all its combined attributes.

I can’t speak for the A-20 since I never flew it much, but I can speak for the 110G. I’d say it is pretty even with the P-38L at typical MA altitudes. The 110G is 25 mph slower and climbs 500 feet less per minute, but it is more maneuverable and has a more lethal gun package. I consider it superior to all the P-47D’s; equal climb rate, 20 mph slower, but much more maneuverable. The 110 will give a Spit IX and 109G6 a good run for their money, being about equal in speed (109 a bit faster, Spit slightly slower) and maneuverability, but worse climb.

... I'm not even gonna touch this one. You're clueless.

I thought we were adding planes to the MA, not the dueling arena. Try fighting Widewing in a Thunderbolt. Better yet, try fighting two Thunderbolts that have altitude and who know how to support each other; bring a buddy, you’ll need one.

Same thing here.. A loaded premise and even then... Been there, done that.  A hundred times. 

You’re arguing that the He 219 wouldn’t see much use in the MA because it is “redundant” and “underpowered” and “dogmeat”… And you used the B-25H as an example. Bad choice.

No, but you wish. I'm saying the 219's firepower is just one paper figure.  The whole picture is what matters.  That's where you see that it's dogmeat.  You quoting the 219 as having more firepower than the 410 is a red herring, cherry-picking.

In terms of HTC being willing to add planes that are “redundant” and “dogmeat” in the late war MA… Yeah.

You left out the qualifier I specified and repeated half a dozen times: It's too redundant when there's two dozen other more sorely needed models.  The 410 is more eligible.  Sit back and watch and see for yourself.

Dogfighting - It's inevitable.

Goering and WWII reality - Not the reality of AH.   As if I needed to say this:  You don't bring a 1000kg BK5 to a knife fight.  The figure you left out is the muzzle velocity.  It's as fast as a 50cal. It's also larger than 30mm, which means that in AH it'll shoot to 2K instead of 1.5K, or even be modeled as a tank round in which case it'll have indefinite time of flight. It'll make for arguably the best sniping gun in the game. No one with a clue will have trouble landing hits with it. It'll be safer to use against bombers than the 108s, especially when mounted on a platform that's more agile and mobile. Quoting the 108's 3200g/min is one more cherry picked stat with no consideration of the full practical context.  If you're shooting at fighters, the BK5 isn't (if you know what you're doing) what's loaded on the 410, and the 219 isn't what you're flying if you mean to survive.  The A20 and Mossie have demonstrated this already.  This is some of the most basic stuff anyone with experience in the MA would know.

I'm getting bored of this discussion with you.  Mischaracterization, semantics, cherry picking, red herrings.

[moot]

I can speak for the 110G. I’d say it is pretty even with the P-38L at typical MA altitudes. The 110G is 25 mph slower and climbs 500 feet less per minute, but it is more maneuverable

I'm done arguing with someone that'd say everything else, and this, with a straight face.

[Die Hard]

I think there must be some kinda cultural barrier. I do think you're a thick old squeak who'd rather argue semantics than the real arguments, but that's something else.  I'm not offended, I'm not interested in politics, I'm just arguing what I see as true.  The 219 is redundant as far as what to add to the AH plane set goes, right now. That's been clear since the start of the argument, except thru whatever you've got in your eyes.

Cultural barrier? I think I read somewhere that you were French, right?

One thing puzzles me: Why do you think I or anyone else want to know what you think about the 219’s redundancy or how likely it is to be included? Are you some kind of authority around here? Please excuse me; I haven’t been on this message board that long so I have to ask.

I'm not saying the 219 has no place in AH.  I have no idea how you figure that. Maybe it's the thick old squeak part.  The A8 is a lump of lead. That's not tantamount to saying it doesnt belong in AH. The A8 K/D is as irrelevant as the Spit16's is to its performance.  End of story.

So the He 219 has a place in Aces High in your opinion. Thank you.

You didn't add the 219 to "some wishlist", that's got nothing to do with the argument. You argued…

This is what I posted:

And...
 
Ki-100
Pe-2
He 219
Ju 388 (it's a stretch, but it would be very cool)

Someone else started arguing the flaws and merits of the He 219. Why someone would do that in a thread like this is beyond me.

Or that the BK5 isn't effectively as lethal as 2x108 and 2x103.  What the hell are you smoking to figure that a gun that can fire and hit from as far as the BK5 won't be killing whatever it's aimed at in two rounds? 

You’ll have to hit with those two rounds. In WWII they couldn’t. In Aces High it will be difficult; a lot more difficult than with two MK 103’s. The BK 5 was a useless weapon for aerial combat in real life, and I suspect it will be equally useless in AH.

If I were playing politics…

Then why didn’t you just say “Hey the He 219 is cool, I’d like it too!” or just say nothing? Why argue against someone else’s wish in a wish list thread? It makes no sense unless you have an agenda of some sort.

... I'm not even gonna touch this one. You're clueless.

In other words you can’t argue against hard facts so you just dismiss the whole argument out of hand and attack my person. Nice.

No, but you wish. I'm saying the 219's firepower is just one paper figure.  The whole picture is what matters.

I completely agree. The whole picture: Great firepower, good speed, good maneuverability, great E-retention (inertia), poor climb and acceleration, big target. Did I leave anything out?

You left out the qualifier I specified and repeated half a dozen times: It's too redundant when there's two dozen other more sorely needed models.  The 410 is more eligible.  Sit back and watch and see for yourself.

Who asked you? I really don’t care which comes first or even if none of them gets modeled. Why can’t you understand that? If one or both gets modeled, great! If not, who cares? Plenty of fun with the planes we already have.

Goering and WWII reality - Not the reality of AH.   As if I needed to say this:  You don't bring a 1000kg BK5 to a knife fight.  The figure you left out is the muzzle velocity.  It's as fast as a 50cal. It's also larger than 30mm, which means that in AH it'll shoot to 2K instead of 1.5K, or even be modeled as a tank round in which case it'll have indefinite time of flight. It'll make for arguably the best sniping gun in the game. No one with a clue will have trouble landing hits with it. It'll be safer to use against bombers than the 108s, especially when mounted on a platform that's more agile and mobile. Quoting the 108's 3200g/min is one more cherry picked stat with no consideration of the full practical context.

Really… or perhaps bomber pilots will just start stick-stirring a little whenever a 410 parks 2k of their tail? Anyone who’s played this game for a while should realize how easy it would be to jink the aim of someone lobbing single shells from long range.

I'm getting bored of this discussion with you.

Perhaps next time you won’t start one then.

I'm done arguing with someone that'd say everything else, and this, with a straight face.

Oh no! Please say it isn't true! You who have been so friendly and polite; calling me stupid, clueless, thick old squeak and whatnot to the point of being moderated twice so far. Please don’t stop, I beg you! 

[Ack-Ack]

I can’t speak for the A-20 since I never flew it much, but I can speak for the 110G. I’d say it is pretty even with the P-38L at typical MA altitudes. The 110G is 25 mph slower and climbs 500 feet less per minute, but it is more maneuverable and has a more lethal gun package.

You're not serious are you?  The P-38L outclasses the Bf 110G-2 in all areas with the sole exception of fire power and can easily out maneuver the G-2 at all altitudes.  If you are of any doubt, I can personally show you.  

Given equal pilots, the P-38 driver will win every time.


ack-ack

[Die Hard]

You're not serious are you?  The P-38L outclasses the Bf 110G-2 in all areas with the sole exception of fire power and can easily out maneuver the G-2 at all altitudes.  If you are of any doubt, I can personally show you.

I'd like that very much. Thank you! 

When I re-subscribe I'll look you up.

[Karnak]

In all the time I played, I never lost a Mossie to a Bf110 either.  The closest I came was a pilot wound from the tail gun that I received while he ate quad 20mm.  I've only downed two fighters with the quad .303s, one was an La-7 that I shot up and it subsequently stalled out into the ground and the other was a Bf110G-2 that I took the wing off of.

I consider the Bf110 to be the weakest of the twin engined fighters for air-to-air combat.

[Blake7]

After looking through all these posts i came up with an idea.

WHY DONT WE ASK HITECH CREATIONS IF THEY WOULD CONSIDER CREATING A POST WW2 ARENA AS WELL AS A WW1 ARENA.

if you remember we were asked early on in the year what our thoughts were on adding ww1 aircraft and as far as i know it got a resounding thumbs up.

My theory is that this would allow the addition of aircraft that were in early stages of development or did fly as WW2 ended such as the Shooting Star and The Vampire annd the Gloster Meteor,but also later varients of aircraft in the game already i.e post war Spits and P51's.

This could also allow the addition of aircraft  used during post WW2 conflicts such as the Phenomanell and respected F.86 Sabre which i think was one of the last true Gun armed Dogfighters.

 

[moot]

Cultural barrier? I think I read somewhere that you were French, right?

One thing puzzles me: Why do you think I or anyone else want to know what you think about the 219’s redundancy or how likely it is to be included? Are you some kind of authority around here? Please excuse me; I haven’t been on this message board that long so I have to ask.

Reason. It doesn't matter if a french toad speaks it.  And no, I'm not french.  Other than having argument in my blood.. I could've gone lawyer instead of engineer.

Someone else started arguing the flaws and merits of the He 219. Why someone would do that in a thread like this is beyond me.

Because of the realities of which planes we should have.

You’ll have to hit with those two rounds. In WWII they couldn’t. In Aces High it will be difficult; a lot more difficult than with two MK 103’s. The BK 5 was a useless weapon for aerial combat in real life, and I suspect it will be equally useless in AH.

Wager.

Then why didn’t you just say “Hey the He 219 is cool, I’d like it too!” or just say nothing? Why argue against someone else’s wish in a wish list thread? It makes no sense unless you have an agenda of some sort.

The argument wasn't (isn't) a wishlist perspective at all. 

In other words you can’t argue against hard facts so you just dismiss the whole argument out of hand and attack my person. Nice.

Nope, I argued them, you dismissed readily available evidence.  So either you're incapable of accurate assessment of said primary evidence (performance in the game), or you're sandbagging. My impression is it's both.  The "attacks" on your person are for fudging the arguments, not for arguing in contradiction per se. 

I completely agree. The whole picture: Great firepower, good speed, good maneuverability, great E-retention (inertia), poor climb and acceleration, big target. Did I leave anything out?

The same accuracy and impartiality that you leave out when you pretend the A8 isn't a lump of lead or that the A20 is better than mediocre anytime there isn't a horde to clear its six, or that the P47 is some kind of one-unit airforce "if you put a good pilot in it"/"if its opponents are clueless", or that the 110 is somehow the 38's equal.  Now that's objective. 

Who asked you? I really don’t care which comes first or even if none of them gets modeled. Why can’t you understand that? If one or both gets modeled, great! If not, who cares? Plenty of fun with the planes we already have.

If you had a clue, you'd realize that's how I see it too.  I'm just arguing what's arguable.  I've said before and haven't change my position that both planes are desirable.  Only that the 219 doesn't stand a chance of being included before the 410, and that this and other circumstance push its intro way back.  Why is the interesting argument. 

Really… or perhaps bomber pilots will just start stick-stirring a little whenever a 410 parks 2k of their tail? Anyone who’s played this game for a while should realize how easy it would be to jink the aim of someone lobbing single shells from long range.

Uh.. No. That's not how it's going to play out.  Let's (and again you can bow the flup out of this argument anytime instead of squeaking about being "forced" to take part) simplify things a bit for argument's sake: there's three targets in the game.  Fighters, Bombers, Toolsheds.  Ground vehicles, and vulchees count as toolsheds.  They're as good as immobile to a BK5 projectile. Curtains for them when trigger is pulled.  The Flaks will be interesting.  The ballistics and rate of will make it a piece of cake to turret them.  The calibre means it'll fly at least to 2K out.  If it's modeled as a tank round, it's really bad news for them.  Unless the round is modeled stricly AP.  That doesn't change the outcome much though.

Fighters?  You don't need a BK5 for the fighters.  6x151 or a pair of 103s will do it.  You've admitted yourself that a difficult plane can be successful in the right hands.. You're preaching to the choir there, I knife fight spits and n1ks in one of the worst turning planes in the game.  The 410 will be the same. A MK103 would make for a kill zone as lethal as the 108-equipped planes' nosecones, but with a range around the same as .50's.  The 219 might have 20s, 108s for short range high volume, and 103s for long range sniping at even greater lethality, but that's all overkill and all on a platform that's not as mobile as the 410.  On top of that, the 219 will lumber along just the same as an A20.. Does anyone fly straight and slow for A20s?  Or 110s?  No.. They get push them down into inferior position and it doesn't take much effort for them to concede from there.  Even more so when they're such big targets. 
The 410 on the other hand isn't as big as an A20, has better acceleration, which on their own are enough to make it harder for the mob of spits/la/n1ks to spray it to death.  If a 152 can do it with 1x108+2x151, the 410 can do it with 2x103 or 6x151.  The 219 isn't going to do as well at all.

Bombers: Yes, a 50mm shell shot at 50cal velocity and reaching out to 2K (nevermind unending time of flight) once a second will ruin bombers' day.  It is safer than MK108s.  Bombers do in fact stand still for even the B25H's slow 75mm. A large target like the A20 does in fact pay correspondingly in received fire. Two on-target shots of BK5 from a platform as small mobile as the 410 are a better weapon in the game than a pair of 151, 108, and 103 on a 219.  That's why it's unrealistic to point to the 25H's firepower on its own.  It's the whole package in situ that counts.

Perhaps next time you won’t start one then.

Perhaps you could be less of a bore by arguing the points instead of beating around the bush with semantics and cherry picking?

Oh no! Please say it isn't true! You who have been so friendly and polite; calling me stupid, clueless, thick old squeak and whatnot to the point of being moderated twice so far. Please don’t stop, I beg you! 

That's funny.  Those posts are the polite ones where I say exactly why you're nit-picking the argument into circles.  Where you try and derail the topic (see rule whatever) by bringing in one more tangent whose pertinence is undefined.