Author Topic: (yet) another AH fighter firepower comparison  (Read 3302 times)

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23888
      • Last.FM Profile
(yet) another AH fighter firepower comparison
« on: May 14, 2009, 01:22:46 AM »
Rather than to continue in the P-47 thread, I'm posting the latest version here. I have made some minor corrections and a change to the FW 190A-8 configuration.



Explanation:

This chart shows the total firepower of a fighter, based on a burst by all weapons for one second.
This is no judgement by myself. I merely compiled the weapon data from Anthony Williams website http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

In a nutshell, firepower of a weapon is defined as (kinetic energy + chemical energy)*ROF, measured at the muzzle.  The chart is not taking into account how a weapon is mounted on a plane or the quality of the gun's trajectory (= ease of aim)

For the curious, here the table my chart is based upon. You can see the configuration I chose for each plane:



A few additional notes

1. Every fighter in the planeset can & will kill it's target under the right circumstances. Being on the lower end doesn't mean you can't kill your enemy. Provided you are shooting at close range and can hold your guns on target, the seemingly "puny" Brownings of the Hurr I will shred a F4U or P47.
This table is meant to give you a rough overview & guide on firepower. It's not meant for "But plane X has 27.5% less firepower, no way you could have killed my B17 blah blah" arguments :D

2. Ballistic characteristics do play a great role. The P-51B may have a lesser destructive power as the A6M2, but the .50cal M2 has the far better trajectory than the mixed armament of the Japanese fighter. Despite having cannons, the A6M2 has often much bigger problems to hit and thus to kill it's target at ranges the P-51B pilot just point and shoots.

3. Ammo supply was not accounted for. The NS-37 is a marvelous gun, but 32 rpg are a serious limit.

4. Different guns, even of the same caliber, can vary vastly in their firepower value.

For example: MG 151/20 (many German fighters and C.205) vs Ho-5 (Ki-61). The Ho-105 is firing a round of similar weight as the MG 151, at slightly higher muzzle velocity and higher ROF. But despite having the highest ROF of all 20mm cannons in the game, it doesn't compensate the fact that the projectile MG 151 is carrying an explosive load three times as large! Second for second, the MG 151 is simply putting more energy on it's target.

5. All data was based on raw, unsynchronized weapon specs. Due to gun mountings the actual ROF (and thus Firepower value) can differ, but these differences are rather small and would sometime be very hard to spot on that chart at all. Once I have tested all weapons in AH for ROF, I could do an updated chart.

6. This table isn't meant to replace the gun comparison table on the Training Corps website.  The numbers here are are real world values. The values on the AHTC page show the destructive power of a single round vs objects in Aces High and are tested & verified withing the game. Both tables can give you different results.

And do not hestitate to point out any errors, inconsistencies or "misinformations". As usual - this is a work in progress.




« Last Edit: May 14, 2009, 01:26:13 AM by Lusche »
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23047
Re: (yet) another AH fighter firepower comparison
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2009, 01:27:45 AM »
I seem to recall that AH applies a generic 10% ROF penalty for syncronized guns.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline stephen

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 744
Re: (yet) another AH fighter firepower comparison
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2009, 01:32:55 AM »
Nice graph.
Personaly I find the planes armed with 4 20mm cannon to be of far greater use than the 30/37mm variety in combat, and they top out on my mental list for anything other than ground attack.

You give a good account of the possiblitys of a few of the more heavily armed aircraft in the game, thanx for the work.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2009, 01:35:01 AM by stephen »
Spell checker is for Morrons

Offline Krusty

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26745
Re: (yet) another AH fighter firepower comparison
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2009, 01:51:56 AM »
I find it quite interesting the C205 is only a hair less powerful than the N1K2... Every time I fly the N1K2 it always seems like the guns are pure and utter crap, landing dozens of hits for what I would have already killed in another plane.

Now I see why!!

Quite interesting!

Offline Chilli

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4278
Re: (yet) another AH fighter firepower comparison
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2009, 02:46:55 AM »
 :aok Great graph and interesting data.  Thanks for posting.  I had always wondered about the incendiary rounds from Allied aircraft.  Is there any information that you have for a discussion on this particular type of round?  Are they included in Aces High's ordinance?

Offline Krusty

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26745
Re: (yet) another AH fighter firepower comparison
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2009, 02:49:53 AM »
AH has some sort of "averaged" hit power for the 50cals, I believe. That's how it works in other MGs (ones that have mixed belts, for example). AH has API modeled from what I recall, as well.

Historically API was the most common round used in US fighters with 50cal guns.

Offline Strip

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3319
Re: (yet) another AH fighter firepower comparison
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2009, 03:17:54 AM »
The location of the guns changes the percieved lethality a great deal. Firing the four 50s out of the P-38s feel almost a lethal as six 50s. Trajectory also plays a big part but Im not telling you anything you didnt already know. Kinda curious if there is a way to evalutate damage potential based on actual convergence zones.

Nice work....<S>

Strip

Offline Urchin

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5517
Re: (yet) another AH fighter firepower comparison
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2009, 03:41:23 AM »
AH has an averaged hit power for everything, which is why the Hispanos are the best 20mm in the game. 

The MG151 suffers in comparison because the AP rounds and regular HE rounds were god-awful in comparison to the Mine rounds.

Offline Ruah

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1083
Re: (yet) another AH fighter firepower comparison
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2009, 04:18:15 AM »
ammo variation would be really sweet. . . and yah, Hispanos are king, and even though the Poney is a sexy plane, I just can't fly a plane that is so popular. . .

thanks for the graph btw, maby its time to fly those 110s aye, just need to find a friend that will sit in the back all day. :P

Kommando Nowotny
I/JG 77, 2nd Staffel
Mediterranean Maelstrom
HORRIDO

Offline Die Hard

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2205
Re: (yet) another AH fighter firepower comparison
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2009, 04:57:28 AM »
Nice compilation!  :aok

Just one erratum: You have the Fw 190A-8 listed with two MG 17's when it should have MG 131's.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23888
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: (yet) another AH fighter firepower comparison
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2009, 05:02:11 AM »
The location of the guns changes the percieved lethality a great deal.

There is absolutely no doubt about that.

I can say I can squeeze more kills out of the 109F or G2's small ammo load than I can achieve with the double hispano + double .50cal armament of the Spit 14 or 16.
I'm just wasting a lot more rounds in the Spit's with their wing mounted guns. With the 109's, convergence is no issue, I can shoot much more precicely (I generally fire the single MG 151/20 only). Also the 109's are much stabler gunplatforms for me.


Just one erratum: You have the Fw 190A-8 listed with two MG 17's when it should have MG 131's.

There it is.. the first blunt error.. *sigh*

Ok, total firepower increases by 3.5% to 1648.

« Last Edit: May 14, 2009, 05:04:38 AM by Lusche »
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

Offline Die Hard

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2205
Re: (yet) another AH fighter firepower comparison
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2009, 05:02:35 AM »
Ok, so that's the firepower according to Williams. How is it according to Hitech?
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23888
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: (yet) another AH fighter firepower comparison
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2009, 05:07:34 AM »
Ok, so that's the firepower according to Williams. How is it according to Hitech?

We can say that for sure only for damage vs. objects. See AHTC website.



Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16333
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
Re: (yet) another AH fighter firepower comparison
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2009, 05:13:15 AM »
I can't find the piece of scrap paper I made the comparative calcs on, but they showed that the Williams and HTC values aren't too disparate.
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline SmokinLoon

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6168
Re: (yet) another AH fighter firepower comparison
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2009, 06:22:50 AM »
Why doesnt HTC release some info like this on their own???  Why do they not have something that denotes ROF, standard trajectory, typical damage, etc, etc. 

One has to wonder why we're always playing a guessing game and why the people have to come up with "guesses" as to why andhow things work. 

btw... thanks for posting the info.  It is nice to have something to reference.   :salute
Proud grandson of the late Lt. Col. Darrell M. "Bud" Gray, USAF (ret.), B24D pilot, 5th BG/72nd BS. 28 combat missions within the "slot", PTO.