(yet) another AH fighter firepower comparison

[moot]

Maybe they're focused on making the game.  There's enough available for players to figure things out.  Play with arena settings offline and you can tinker your way to those values down to pretty small margins of error. 

[Anaxogoras]

Snailman,

If you notice that it only takes 11 seconds for the Ki-84 to fire 300 rounds of 20mm, vs 11 seconds for the 240 rounds of the Spit's 20mm, it will change your results more dramatically than it might appear at first.

Edit:  Oh, I see Ki-61 and Ki-84 are still in the same place.

[Anaxogoras]

Another thing you'll see when you look at rof:

The Ki-84 fires 300 rounds of 20mm in the same time it takes the Spitfire series to fire 240.  Therefore, the Ki-84 actually has greater lethality than any Spit.

[Masherbrum]

Snailman,

If you notice that it only takes 11 seconds for the Ki-84 to fire 300 rounds of 20mm, vs 9 seconds for the 240 rounds of the Spit's 20mm, it will change your results more dramatically than it might appear at first.

Edit:  Oh, I see Ki-61 and Ki-84 are still in the same place.

 

[Lusche]

Another thing you'll see when you look at rof:

The Ki-84 fires 300 rounds of 20mm in the same time it takes the Spitfire series to fire 240.  Therefore, the Ki-84 actually has greater lethality than any Spit.

This argument would be true if both had the same 20mm cannons.

They don't.

Lethality is not based on ROF alone. The Hispano is firing slower, but the individual rounds are substantially more powerful. See my intial post.

[Anaxogoras]

This argument would be true if both had the same 20mm cannons.

They don't.

Lethality is not based on ROF alone. The Hispano is firing slower, but the individual rounds are substantially more powerful. See my intial post.

You're still wrong.

Based on hangar tests, 1 Hispano 20mm shell = 4.03 lbs of ordinance.  1 Ho-5 20mm shell = 3.62 lbs of ordinance.  Equalized for a 1 second burst, 20mm only:

Ki-84: 98.72
SpitX: 87.92

[Lusche]

You're still wrong.

Based on hangar tests, 1 Hispano 20mm shell = 4.03 lbs of ordinance.  1 Ho-5 20mm shell = 3.62 lbs of ordinance.  Equalized for a 1 second burst, 20mm only:

Ki-84: 98.72
SpitX: 87.92

You should really read my initial posting.

[Anaxogoras]

I know you're using Tony Williams.  I don't know why.

[Lusche]

I know you're using Tony Williams.  I don't know why.

Why not?

[Anaxogoras]

Because lethality in the game doesn't match his data.  It's approximate, but you're under-rating the Ho-5.

[Lusche]

Because lethality in the game doesn't match his data.

Lethatilty vs. objects. Which doesn't have to be the same than lethalithy vs. enemy planes. For example we do know the damage model of guns vs. objects is very much simplified, for example range doesn't play any role.

We do not not know the exact firepower & effects vs planes in AH. The lethaitly test gives a quite good indication in my opinion, but it is just one indication.

My chart is based on real world data. If you want it's another indicatior.

And may I quote

6. This table isn't meant to replace the gun comparison table on the Training Corps website.  The numbers here are are real world values. The values on the AHTC page show the destructive power of a single round vs objects in Aces High and are tested & verified withing the game. Both tables can give you different results.

[Anaxogoras]

So which would you expect to yield more accurate data for the game, shooting enemy aircraft:  Tony Williams' data or hangar test data?  I know where I'd put my money.

[Lusche]

So which would you expect to yield more accurate data for the game, shooting enemy aircraft:  Tony Williams' data or hangar test data?  I know where I'd put my money.

For the reasons I mentioned above, I wouldn't use any money at all, until I have figured how to conduct valid & meaningful tests vs planes

( I have already an idea, but it will have to wait for the return of a 8-player mode before I'm able to try it)




Another thing... were did you get the 3.62lbs vs structures value for the Ho-5 from? It's not listed on the AHTC website, an my own tests gave a rating of 3.33lbs (300 rounds to kill a FH @ hardness 1.0, 600 rounds @ hardness 2.0)

[moot]

What's the justification for assuming that the hangar data (standardized kinetic/chemical damage) is closer to the AH guns' damage against planes than Williams' formula?

[Karnak]

The one test I did was using the single Hispano on the P-38 from a range of about 100 yards hitting the tail cones of the Bf110G-2, Mosquito Mk VI, Lancaster Mk III and B-17G.  It consistently took 2 shots to removed the 110's tail, 3 shots to remove the Mossie's tail, 14 shots to remove the Lanc's and 17 shots to remove the Fort's.

This was in AH1 though.